[FULL] OOC: Dichotomy's Age of Worms Redux [FULL]

[michael_noah]

I believe the RAW is unworkable, and no wizards would ever learn any spells if this were the case.

What I think we decided was something very close to:

1)Read magic as normal.
2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.
3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.
4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.
5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.

A reason, and often a very good one, you would still wish to copy spells into one single book is that otherwise you have to cart around like 5 books (which should probably have some weight or something).

 

[o3caudata]

I like that some. There should probably be some tie to level/int mod/current spell level available. IE: it should be really really really hard for wes to copy gate. Maybe? I guess i'm not SURE how read magic works....

 

[michael_noah]

Oh, learning the spell follows the same rules as normal, too. Roll is the same, if you fail you can't try again until whenever it is, etc.

 

[TiCaudata]

I really don't understand the problem with the rule as written. It looks to me that the rule is designed to be prohibitive to both low level players and to players on the move during an adventure. The wizard class is supposed to be a class that is constantly studying and gains power through that knowledge. This might be one of the few rules that actually makes sense to me.

A spellcraft 15+ check is nothing for a higher level wizard, but might stop a lower level one from copying a spell too powerful for them to know. Likewise with the gold cost. At most a spell costs 900 gold to transfer, when you have 15k who cares? It's the price of knowledge. If you want a caster that can advance quickly whenever they are exposed to a new spell, be a sorc.

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

 

[michael_noah]

Wizards are already hosed just because they need a spellbook. Clerics/Druids just get to know every spell for free. Sorcerers don't need a book.

Even if it were to take the extra time, I still think one should be able to cast from a found book.

 

[TiCaudata]

I can see that argument only if the wizard spends a SERIOUS amount of time studying the book the first time and then more than usual each additional time. I supposed you could also cast read magic everyday before studying. Some of the language that Di omitted talks about each wizard having a different writing style. I see it as analogous with a big group of cryptographers, each one has their own code and you have to work at breaking the code before you can use another guy's notes. Even if you broke it before, you have to spend time re-familiarizing yourself with the code.

If you want to cast from another's spell book after you decipher their style (which you would only have to do once), I think it would mean that you have to spend some additional amount of time as a part of your daily studying, maybe another hour. Most of the time this added time would be absorbed in the daily resting anyway, so it shouldn't be too onerous of a time commitment. However, if it's a time crunch situation, the wizard might just have to deal with not being able to use someone else's spellbook.

If you just want to cast read magic everyday, that would work too I suppose.

How's that sound?

 

[worthley]

So, I have been thinking about this for a while, but I am really tired, so this might just come out as ramblings. Personally I think that what M_N proposed is better than the RAW. The RAW basically makes spellbooks you find useless. It also means that when a party reaches level 5, 7, 9, etc. they sit around for a few weeks, or go find a new wizard, because he has to go study new spells so he can do more than Summon Monster X. That becomes detremental to the whole roleplaying experience. I do have some suggestions to adjusting of M_N's list of rules.

1)Read magic as normal.
Works for me

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.
I think this might be too little of time. I also think that 1 day/spell is stupid. I suggest it takes something like 1/spell level hours, with a minimum of 3 hours. I think that we could split that time up, but for every "studying session" you make the spellcraft check. Max of 8 hours/day studying. I think this creates a better balance of level to time.

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.
Add, that you have already used read magic or whatever

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.
OK with that

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.
Outside of the whole read magic thing, ok

6)spellcraft checks stuff
I say that you first decide how long you want to study for. At the end of that time, you make your check, if you fail, you just lose that time. I'm all for saying that you must study in 1 hour incriments. That prevents from making it into 5 minute sessions, and having to make tons of checks to try and 'save time'

Please remember that if something doesn't make sence, I am really tired right now, and just ask me to clarify.

 

[o3caudata]

I think the RAW are stupid too. I like m_n's ideas, but I would suggest these amendments:

1)Read magic as normal.

[none]

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.

[tie it to caster level/int mod/spellcraft and in some way cap it? For instance i think an 18th level wizard should be able to copy a 2nd level spell from a 4th level wizards spellbook MUCH easier than another 4th level wizard would be able to.]

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.

[i'd change it to: once you know how to cast a spell from a specific spellbook, you know it. I'm sorta agreeing with Ti here, that there's some 'personality' to the writing, that requires study. so if you spend the time to learn a spell from a specific spell book, you can always and forever prepare from THAT spellbook.]

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.

[agreed.]

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.

[only that you know all the spells in your spellbook, and you only know the one's you've taken the time to learn in the other. ]

 

[TiCaudata]

Alright, since the big trend is to copy the list and annotate, I guess I'm gonna do it too.

I think the RAW make sense:

1)Read magic as normal.

[why do we comment on things that aren't changed?]

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.

[I still think that the notion that making everyone wait 2 days for the wizard to learn the spell is perfectly ok. Wizards have power because they study and spend time doing it. The notion that our characters might have gone from clueless hayseeds to seasoned warriors in 20 days is more than a little ludicrous. Having to write that we wait 3 days to tie up odds and ends and let our various casters prepare for the next battle however they do it (by studying spells, making potions, whatever) wouldn't take any additional effort or real-world time to complete.

That being said, I like o3's idea to a limit. It should still take the 18th level wizard a fair bit of time to learn a new style of writing, especially if everyone's style is completely different.

Also I'd like to flip the perspective around a little. Learning a 9th level spell in a day is a steal at any price. If we want to lower the time for low level spells I think we need to raise it for high level spells. Averaging them out doesn't seem to be that bad of an idea to me. Maybe we need a complicated algorithm to solve for time needed to learn a spell though. (That sounds like a jab, but I like complicated algorithms at least half of the time.)]

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.

[oddly enough I think this is fine with o3's changes. Read magic should NOT count the same as studying a writing style though. Read magic just makes the funny looking words on the page make sense for X amount of time, it doesn't make you able to comprehend the writing later.]

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.

[Are you guy's talking about striking the whole "wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells"? Because if you are... OF COURSE it shouldn't apply to stolen or spoils spellbooks. I suppose you could pay the wizard a fee, but then just take the money right off his corpse again. Just because the closest applicable rule is that you are borrowing the spellbook doesn't mean you are actually borrowing the spellbook.]

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.

[o3 sums this up pretty well.]

 

[michael_noah]

EDITS!

I think maybe I misremembered what we had done before? Deciphering a spell doesn't actually take any time. Only writing it in a book takes time. Even preparing from a borrowed book takes time. Huh...

1)We all agree here.

2)But see, it isn't just writing that we wait 3 days to tie up loose ends. Say, look at our current situation. To be more extreme, what if we're all adventuring at level 16, and we level up. Yay! except for wes. he gets nothing. We could wait around for him, but then the bad guy will have already won. Sucks to be Wes. See?

I agree completely that the flavor of the wizard is that he's all boring and crappy and spends all his time reading books. That just doesn't work with the rest of the world, like the clerics who are awesome and exciting and go around kicking ass.

3)Meh

4)I was just noting that we weren't changing this rule. I think it's important to note which parts we're not changing. I think we all agreed on this? (there's more to it than paying a wizard to copy, you actually have to pay to write it in your book) I do think, though, that we changed this time requirement to also be 1 hour/level.

5)Right, I just mean that it shouldn't be an additional check every single time.


Additional notes:

According to the RAW, you can't even cast a spell from a "borrowed" book unless you have it written in "your" book. First, this is dumb. Second, it makes no difference from a player wealth perspective. By the RAW, found spellbooks are worth exactly 0. After you spend gold, then your spellbook is worth more. Then the DM has to give you more treasure. Why not just have the spellbook you found be worth gold in the first place?

Secondly, even though you can't cast a spell from a "borrowed" book, you can understand it well enough that you can write it in "your" book (this is the coppying procedure). This makes no sense.

The RAW time to write a 9th level spell in a book is 1 day. This is essentially the same as 9 hours, since you also have to rest 8, etc, so we're barely changing high level spells at all - we're just making low level ones easier.

The way that it is easier for high level casters to do stuff is the Spellcraft check. If a wizard fails the check, they can't try again until the next day. I don't think we need to penalize low level wizards more than that by making it slower.