D&D General Fundamental Problem Of Old Settings

Henry

Autoexreginated
Eberron has done this right. The picked a time in the setting and set people up to run the game at that key point in the game world history where everything is ripe for adventure. I wish they'd do that witht the rest of the settings.
Keith Baker said something concerning this in a podcast recently. (I can’t remember if it was Morrus’ ENWorld podcast or a Manifest Zone.) Keith said that the tricky thing about moving the timeline in Eberron would be the nature of things following the Last War - if you, say, reveal the secret of the Mournland, or make a major power shakeup between different countries, you will fundamentally alter the tenuous state of things at the Thronehold Treaty, and it’s really the only thing the logically speaking prevents the Last War from resuming. Eberron’s status is the embodiment of the state of our Earth from 1919 to about 1931; once the Eastern conflicts begin, the Roller Coaster Ride of Suck continues all the way through to the end of World War 2, and the tenuous nature of the “Pulp Era” is over. Similarly, Eberron’s setting is configured for MAXIMUM ADVENTURE; changing anything major officially would move that needle.

One other view that wouldn’t change much would be a “retro” product that explored the major phases of the Last War itself, and the character of those phases, but WotC already did that product back in 3.5 days (The Forge of War). A revisit of that product might be a cool take on “moving the timeline” so to speak.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Even though I essentially started my relationship with Forgotten Realms with the 3.0 FRCS (which is then my own "year zero" with the setting), I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I think basically all the famous settings became a success at their first iteration? So from a gaming point of view there is no need to advance or update the settings, if it worked great at that time then the best way to play it, is to play the original version of it. Of course from a business point of view, they want to release new books, but they could be "horizontal" expansions instead of historical advance (i.e. new places instead of new events), and of course they could be rules edition updates. I don't want to be forced to move along with the ludicrous FR metaplot just to get FR updated to 5e rules...

And by the way "updating to 5e" does not mean that every setting must allocate every single race or class or whatever is in the 5e PHB: a campaign setting gets its strength and personality from what exists in its fantasy world, including player character's stuff. If you force a new iteration of the setting to allow unprecedented stuff only because it's in the new edition PHB, you dilute and bastardize the uniqueness of that setting. It's the new edition which should support settings, and not settings being changed to support the new edition :/



That would be a great idea actually.

3.0 was decent and restrained for edition changes. No Time of Troubles or Spellplague.
 

pukunui

Legend
3.0 was decent and restrained for edition changes. No Time of Troubles or Spellplague.
And it shifted FR away from being a Middle-Earth clone by reversing the “decline” of the elder races: elves started coming back to Faerûn from Evermeet (the FR equivalent of Valinor), culminating in the refounding of Myth Drannor; and the dwarves experienced a baby boom because of the Thunder Blessing.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
And it shifted FR away from being a Middle-Earth clone by reversing the “decline” of the elder races: elves started coming back to Faerûn from Evermeet (the FR equivalent of Valinor), culminating in the refounding of Myth Drannir; and the dwarves experienced a baby boom because of the Thunder Blessing.

Yeah evolution vs revolution. Thinking of converting the 3.0 feats in the FRCS to 5E and running that timeline.
 

Sadras

Legend
3.0 was decent and restrained for edition changes. No Time of Troubles or Spellplague.

Ah, but here is the rub. I have used the Spellplague* in my campaign to provide justification for the crossovers that happened - a modified version of 1 part of the Rod of 7 Parts landed in Mystara. Advancing the timeline can also spark ideas thereby providing opportunities. I'm a bit of a lore stickler and I try find ways to incorporate, as much as I can, the setting lore that exists.

Furthermore you are also free to set your campaign anywhere on the timeline you find most interesting.
In another Mystara campaign I have, I set the campaign date a decade before AC 1000 (the official start date) and that whole business with the Master of the Desert Nomads, Hule's war against the Known World, the destruction of Alfheim...etc

I get where you're coming from, but do not forget the opporunities created by changes.

*Per the Wiki - The Spellplague was born from the defiling powers from the Far Realm, a plane that existed outside of Realmspace, not even Lord Ao had the power to stop it once it started. Its effects continued to spread across the multiverse.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Ah, but here is the rub. I have used the Spellplague* in my campaign to provide justification for the crossovers that happened - a modified version of 1 part of the Rod of 7 Parts landed in Mystara. Advancing the timeline can also spark ideas thereby providing opportunities. I'm a bit of a lore stickler and I try find ways to incorporate, as much as I can, the setting lore that exists.

Furthermore you are also free to set your campaign anywhere on the timeline you find most interesting.
In another Mystara campaign I have, I set the campaign date a decade before AC 1000 (the official start date) and that whole business with the Master of the Desert Nomads, Hule's war against the Known World, the destruction of Alfheim...etc

I get where you're coming from, but do not forget the opporunities created by changes.

*Per the Wiki - The Spellplague was born from the defiling powers from the Far Realm, a plane that existed outside of Realmspace, not even Lord Ao had the power to stop it once it started. Its effects continued to spread across the multiverse.

Due to the spell plague I just don't use FR that much anymore only for the APs and I rarely run those. Moved onto Golarion then Midgard. They basically killed everything so I stopped caring.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
Really, the sensible way to do a campaign setting is to have a fixed "Year Zero" for official products, anything that happens later is up to the DM and players.
Interestingly, this was Gygax's original plan for Greyhawk. CY 576 was to be the common starting point for all campaigns, letting the DM determine the future events. Later products were going to be focused on other areas of the world (such as Kara-Tur beyond the Sea of Dust). Sadly those never materialized, as he focused on other media (cartoon, potential movie, etc.) instead of making RPG products.

Some settings benefit from having an ongoing storyline, so long as it's overseen by a single figure (similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe). The Realms had its hayday during 2E, with tons of products and books, many of which moved the story forward a bit. However as I understand it, Ed Greenwood had a lot of input on each of these, keeping them fairly cohesive. When things are just pushed out willy-nilly, you get a hot mess of nonsense.
 

Sadras

Legend
Due to the spell plague I just don't use FR that much anymore only for the APs and I rarely run those. Moved onto Golarion then Midgard. They basically killed everything so I stopped caring.

Well, it is likely easier for me, because only with 5e did I start using FR despite having read some of the novels and played the PC games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter and their expansions). I'd love to explore other settings but I just do not play often enough.

Our PCs are 11th level so I'm hoping in the future to do plane-hopping which will allow us to dip our toes in other settings without giving me the work to read up on everything about each one.
 

Coroc

Hero
Even though I essentially started my relationship with Forgotten Realms with the 3.0 FRCS (which is then my own "year zero" with the setting), I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I think basically all the famous settings became a success at their first iteration? So from a gaming point of view there is no need to advance or update the settings, if it worked great at that time then the best way to play it, is to play the original version of it. Of course from a business point of view, they want to release new books, but they could be "horizontal" expansions instead of historical advance (i.e. new places instead of new events), and of course they could be rules edition updates. I don't want to be forced to move along with the ludicrous FR metaplot just to get FR updated to 5e rules...

And by the way "updating to 5e" does not mean that every setting must allocate every single race or class or whatever is in the 5e PHB: a campaign setting gets its strength and personality from what exists in its fantasy world, including player character's stuff. If you force a new iteration of the setting to allow unprecedented stuff only because it's in the new edition PHB, you dilute and bastardize the uniqueness of that setting. It's the new edition which should support settings, and not settings being changed to support the new edition :/



That would be a great idea actually.

3.0 is a good baseline for FR, grey box which I heavily prefer for nostalgic reasons also.
The timeline here is even helpful, you do not collide so much if you take one or the other if they are 100 years apart. So everything has two sides at least like always.
But compared to other settings FR is so much more forgiving, they say eberron is the maximum kitchen setting, but that is not true FR definitely is more kitchen sink, because in eberron everything comes with a twist (and somehow has to) whereas in FR it may come with or without twists

Original or blue box is a good baseline for greyhawk and in contraire to others I do not dislike the wars box, it offers the closest to some official (but easily to modify) canon. Wars just isn't a good baseline.

Ravenloft has several possible starting points, black or red box and the ravenloft timeline is very very precise, plus it is not putting up dependencies. Additions of domains (or vanishing of them) does not hurt much, because in ravenloft nothing (and everything) is connected, due to domain borders.

The original feel of Ravenloft and Darksun needs something which go beyond most fluff (canon), namely crunch (mechanics) which are true to the original mechanics purposes, e.g. power checks for Ravenloft,
weapon and armor of inferior material for darksun, whilest reflecting this inferior material ! mechanically because you can tell me all night long that the dagger is made from bone, it is when it breaks that it has impact. Also especially DS needs some hefty restriction in terms of damage resistances, feats, easy transportation, easy nourishment, and tricks like having a weapon at will. Also some classes are totally different (Bard), or won't fit at all (Paladin).

And no, the big critics always seem to come from people who think integrating dragonborn gnome paladin monk sorcerers into DS is more worth than to be classic, in other words

And by the way "updating to 5e" does not mean that every setting must allocate every single race or class or whatever is in the 5e PHB

like you wrote but without the not seems to be a big credo especially for modern players. For us old school grognards this is like a child which cannot decide whether to put sugar, salt, ketchup or mustard onto their meal and thinks better to take all so it cannot go wrong. Of course the meal gets bland by it.
 


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