Game Balance: possible without magic items?

Emirikol said:
Do fighters really need magical swords and armor to be as powerful as a wizard?
At low levels, no. At mid to high levels, absolutely. A 10th-level fighter with a masterwork greatsword isn't even in the same league as a 10th-level wizard and his Cone of Cold. At 20th-level, the fighter is still wielding that masterwork greatsword, and the wizard can shapechange into a great wyrm red dragon.
 

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Everyone's seemed to concentrate exclusively on magical weapons, but what about armor, shields and general defensive type items that boost saving throws. It's going to be pretty rough for fighters and rogues to make Will saves against high level mind affecting spells with no bonus to their saving throw. A fighter with no magical weapons, armor or shield fighting high level monsters with high attack and damage bonuses such as giants and dragons is in for a really difficult time. The best AC that a fighter could hope for is AC 21 (full plate + large shield and a +1 dex bonus). For instance, a CR 10 monster like a fire giant has an attack bonus of +20/+15/+10 meaning that he's going to almost automatically hit on his first attack, probably hit on his second attack and have a 50/50 chance of hitting on his third attack. Magical Vestment helps but that's going to expend the cleric's already limited potential healing before the adventure even starts. What do fighters and rogues do against invisible creatures other than stand there and try to grope around looking for them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these people that advocates high level PC's as walking magic stores, but I just don't see fighters competing with wizards and even clerics for that matter without the assistance of magical weapons, armor and shields. Rogues are in a little better position because of their high sneak attack damage bonus and the evasion ability help them avoid the damage from the higher level damage spells, but I think that they also face a tough uphill battle without magical items. Clerics and wizards also aren't out of the woods, because once they run out of spells, the cleric becomes an inferior fighter and the wizard...well the wizard just gets a front row seat until he can replenish his spells the following day.
 

It seems then that without magic items, the monsters seem a lot more monstrous. Looking at your example, it seems that even a high level party would look at any combat just the same as a 1st level party would.

It's intriguing because I talk to a lot of DM's and players who are trying to recapture that feeling of 'danger.' That seems missing in most high level campaigns.

Without the magic item crutch, the game is simpler and more challenging.

I'm still not sure how to consider where the cleric of the party will be about 9th level in comparison to the other characters. I guess he's always got Raise Dead!

Em
 

Without the magic item crutch, the game is simpler and more challenging.
Simpler, yes. But I don't see how you get more challenging. Eliminating magic items eliminates a lot of the extra options that high-level play brings. It brings it back to whack--whack--heal. The only difference is that you're using bigger numbers for damage and max hp.
 

this be where the forsaker class comes in VERY handy. monks would shine brighter than a nuclear blast, and a druid's WILD SHAPE would rule the day.;)
 

Lord Pendragon said:
Simpler, yes. But I don't see how you get more challenging.
Higher CR monsters tend to have more dangerous supernatural/spell-like abilities. Without counters or Save boosting items, I would imagine higher level but magic-poor characters are in for some nasty surprises.
 

but the game is reduced to a simple : hit thing with sword, nothing happens, run away in abject fear, get killed, get digested........ick puts adventurers at the bottom of the food chain.

if you were starving in the middle of the desert, and you had a wand of polymorph, and a dozen ants, you could in theory turn then into a dozen chickens......neato!
 


Only one way to find out if it'd work: Do it and see.

I wouldn't recommend removing all magic items, however. I'd change item creation feats so that the items created cease to be magical when the creator dies.

:D
 
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Wormwood said:

Higher CR monsters tend to have more dangerous supernatural/spell-like abilities. Without counters or Save boosting items, I would imagine higher level but magic-poor characters are in for some nasty surprises.
You have a point. But as I see it, this phenomenon only makes for a more deadly game, not a more challenging one. I hate to say it (really,) but Angcuru's right: allowing the beasties to keep all their magic but removing magic items from the heroes simply means dead heroes. Deadly =! Challenging.
 

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