Game Breaker Spells - What are they?

[Baby Samurai]

Well, then the smart non-mage villain has hired a mage, or rather a network of mages for every corner of his stronghold, or rather a network of mages for every corner of his stronghold at all hours of the day.

But that brings up the "contrived problem" that DMs like me try to avoid.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Dear OP...

You are missing a chance to use this spell to drop additional clues... remember in a world where people can talk to the dead, killers would make sure they can't be identified, a hood over the face or even a mask can not only be a “calling card” but even a clue for your players. Speak with dead only gives you knowledge from the dead persons point of view, if they were attacked from behind they would have no idea who killed them.

Instead of seeing this spell as a barrier see it as a tool… the dead can give the characters clues they need to get on the right track, anyone who says you can’t do a good murder mystery in D&D is sadly mistaking (we have had several successful Murder Mysteries in the Living Arcanis campaign)

I don't disagree. (And I am perfectly happy with accepting that Speak with Dead might not be the worst spell)

If you would like some hints and so on… drop me a line off list and I will be happy to help you craft a better murder mystery… remember divination spells can be used to give the players clues, you just need to expect them to cast spells and plan for them.

Thanks for the offer. (But I doubt I remember it if the moment I actually need it )
But that's give me an interesting idea: Maybe we should open a topic that deals with game-breaker spells "from the other side" - how can we deal in non-contrived ways with them. How can we make them even integral or crucial to resolving an adventure?
I think it is certainly possible to do this, but it usually requires to design an adventure this way (which in some ways, make it contrived - but not in the way: "Everybody in the world accounts for these spells potentially messing their day, thus making the spell effective useless again")

 

[med stud]

Ummm Dispel Magic.. heros fall.. go boom...

any smark villain would be ready for a fly in attack.. it leaves the characters open to one spell which will make them drop..

Oh.. and the villain just called all his guards, who attack the players.. all at once.

Fly is worse than that; if the enemies have no capability of dispelling fly they are hosed, the same thing if they don't have ranged attacks. Even if fly is dispellable it is a) no guarantuee that the dispel magic will take the fly away and b) the BBEG has to use one round out of the average 5 rounds for a combat for dispel magic with the side effect of dealing ~3d6 damage in falling damage to the mage, an action with very high opportunity cost. The worst problem with fly is that it totally hamstrings some opponents in a way that no other 3rd level spells do.

Teleport is even worse. I think teleporting circle is OK, as is other forms of teleport that takes the caster to a destination prepared in advance. But to be able to scry a place and teleport there makes it possible to decapitate almost any organization far too easy. After the attack on the BBEG you can always teleport back and prepare for another offensive.

 

[sidonunspa]

And if the villain isn't a mage?....

And why doesn’t he have one working for him? Like an advisor? Any villain worth his salt would have access to a caster if they can’t cast spells themselves, magic is too powerful of a resource for any intelligent Villain not to have access too.

And even then... Use Magic Device + Wand = Instant Caster

 

[sidonunspa]

Precisely.

Or what if (metagame level now) you do this all the time? Your players will justifiably start to complain that you're targeting their prized special abilities.

Then in that case, give them a taste of it... what if the Villain’s Mage casts a mass version of fly on some bad guys? The combat will be hard to run, but damn cool.

Maybe as the characters fly up...you have archers unload on them (seeing they have no cover)

There are tons a way to get around the flying characters… want to make them feel special? make them HAVE to fly to get to a part of the adventure (like attack a skyship)


If the players get pissed because you play your bad guys with the same smarts as the players, well then I guess you have players who want Villains to be “dumb villains”... what’s the fun in that?

 

[Kraydak]

In my experience, incorporeal foes show up rarely enough that the players don't bother with ghost touch weapons, unless they happen to find them. As for defeating invisibility, it takes either some fairly low-level spells (Glitterdust, Detect Invisibility) or someone with high perception skill bonuses, something which high-level parties will certainly have. And honestly, an adventuring party with no bows or other means to engage distant enemies deserves to be hosed by kobolds dropping flaming oil on them from the top of a wall.

But you do agree, it is as binary a situation: you don't have the counter, people with Fly or Invis will kill you. No magic weapons (ghost touch isn't needed) against Incoporeals=death. It is precisely the same situation, just at a lower level.

Which spells do you mean? The only thing that reliably works, AFAIK, is forbiddance, and that's costly (meaning it's only useful for warding your personal sanctums, leaving you open to an attack when and if you go anywhere) and 6th level.

Hallow (Dim Anchor) and Private Sanctum guard your home starting with lvl 5 spell acess. Yes, it does make travel hard. Which might help explain why you hire adventurers. But no one who wants to play the high level game can afford not to have counters up in the same way that no one who wants to play the midlevel game can afford not having Fly/Invis counters. No access to a mage/cleric/UMD=not a viable BBEG. But then, no access to magic in general=not a viable BBEG at any but the lowest of levels.

I'm not saying that Greater Invisibility or Fly aren't problematic; just that teleportation is IMO more problematic than that. (If the scry-buff-teleport attack is employed by the DM against a party that hasn't prepared for it, they're going to get hurt badly, which isn't really any fun for anyone. And given how obvious a tactic is, it breaks the suspension of disbelief if the characters' high-level enemies never seek to use it against them.)

SBT is only a threat for people who have to travel out of long duration area wardings (the PCs, really). Non-detection really doesn't cut it (and amulets are worthless, unless you buy them at a higher CL), but the various Spell Immunities can for short periods. Of course *no one* wants to exit the safety of no-scry areas, including the bad guys.

On the other hand, having the players detail all their home/travel defenses is a losing game. The time it takes from the game is ridiculous. Just handwave the protections/opposition's research as cancelling. Its close enough to reality and will save entire sessions worth of planning. (planning defenses that will probably never get hit is much less interesting than planning an assault that will go off)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

's funny...reading this reminds me of reading the Corporate Security Handbook for the Shadowrun game back in the days...especially the Matrix banter accompanying every article. Somehow I think it's got something to do with the focus you place on the game.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

But that brings up the "contrived problem" that DMs like me try to avoid.

Yah, pretty much.

 

[gizmo33]

But that brings up the "contrived problem" that DMs like me try to avoid.

What is the "contrived problem"? Is it that there are certain obvious ways of solving certain problems in the game world? Not wanting to get hit with sharp weapons, for example, causes fighters to wear armor. Castles have those little crenellations on the wall so that archers can hide behind them and shoot. Is it contrived that almost all castles have crenellated walls? That almost all fighters wear armor?

From that perspective, it would make sense than a non-magic using BBEG (and probably even a magic-using one) would hire a bunch of other casters to help him with his schemes.

Of course magic causes changes in the world that doesn't reflect history (and alot of mythology and stories since those reflect history frequently). However, I think it's possibly a slippery slope once you determine that magic will have no effect on the way society deals with problems in terms of technology. Magic, by it's nature, bypasses various "barriers" - death, distances, all the rest.

I do think that DnD traditionally has had a shortage of protection spells. You should be able to cast a spell on someone's corpse to prevent speak with dead and it should probably be about the same level as the original spell. Teleport should probably have various magical and mundane ways of thwarting it. Infallible divination spells with no cost for casting should probably be changed. But at the same time I think the limitations should be applied judiciously, and with the understanding that magic will/should probably change the appearence of DnD (and some of the realities of what it means to run a "murder mystery" type adventure, for example).

I can't imagine a world with magic where I can't fly to the top of a remote moutain. Then again, I wonder why there are no similar spells to prevent that.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I can't imagine a world with magic where I can't fly to the top of a remote moutain.

Sure, but as a 5th level character? I don't think anyone who is saying fly is disruptive is saying it should go completely. Just that is ought to be something for a higher level character to do.