Game Day mini = Spined Devil

[Bagpuss]

Makes a lot more sense to me than -1 melee, +1 ranged which limits your options based on your role for no particular reason I can see.

The pretty obvious reason is it's role as a skirmisher thus it favours ranged combat, over melee. You could expect the melee types to have +1 melee, -1 ranged. Defender types might get a bonus to AC instead. It doesn't limit your options it helps you fit your role better.

 

[GSHamster]

My first thoughts reading the stats were: "Hmm, that is a really boring Monster to play."
Taking into account what Clark said and that these are most probably not the final stats I hope that there will be more to the spinded Devil than spine rain, poison and fire immunity.

Don't get me wrong; I really like an easy to use Monster. But stripping the Devil down to a one trick pony is like throwing the minatures away and using cardstock counters. Both do the work, but the miniature looks better and is more un to use.

Well, keep in mind that 4E is really pushing the concept of fighting groups of monsters.

If you have a bigger devil (brute?) with 3 of these guys, that's going to be a nicely complex battle, but one that won't overwhelm the DM, even if the Spined Devil only has a spine rain attack.

 

[The Little Raven]

Don't get me wrong; I really like an easy to use Monster. But stripping the Devil down to a one trick pony is like throwing the minatures away and using cardstock counters. Both do the work, but the miniature looks better and is more un to use.

In my experience, both as a DM and a player, 95% of all abilities on a creature with 3 or more special ones never really got used, unless it was the BBEG (who is usually a fairly unique character, rather than just something picked out of the MM). With the whole "it's simple to add class levels to a monster to make it beefier for an encounter," I think a long list of hardly used abilities is a thing of the past.

 

[Plane Sailing]

/off topic

I felt that Mike Mearls' Ogre Mage makeover completely mishandled the fundamental aspects of the creature. He came at it from a certain perspective that meant that sleep, charm person etc were just 'cluttering the list'.

The thing is, I've always seen Ogre Mages used as infiltrators, making their way into human society with their polymorph and invisibility to hide, their sleep and gaseous form to bypass obstacles, their charm person to make friends in high places and gain positions of influence in order to further their evil schemes.

They are a great relatively low level 'mastermind of evil schemes', BBEG's who are pulling the strings and have some punch for the final showdown.

Mike views it as a "kick in the door and face an Ogre Mage. It isn't as much of a threat as a stone giant" kind of problem. I think the problem is with an inadequate view of how the monster can be used in an adventure.

I'm going on about this at length because I fear that what other designers see as 'a mess of incompatible abilities' *I* see as interesting alternative hooks for using the creature in an adventure. I ran a great 3.0e adventure with a planar bound bearded devil helping a wizard to create a vast undead army by slaughtering whole villages and using its 'animate dead at will' ability. An ability which was removed from the bearded devil in the 3.5 revision to help it focus on its melee fighting as a sole tactic.

I want monsters with a rich array of tactical and strategic uses, not single-focussed foes.

Cheers

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I think one of the issues with the Ogre Mage rework was that he looked at the name and saw "Ogre" in it while the orginal basis of the critter wasn't really an Ogre at all. This is backed up by his line "Cone of cold does lots of damage, but it might be hard for the ogre mage to avoid catching its Large-sized ogre followers in the cone." I agree with Mike in that aspect.

The Ogre Mage didn't say "Ogre" to me either. The idea of a Spirit/Demon/Oni that controlls an entire town through magic is a great concept. The rewrite does a much better job of 'magic wielding Ogre' to me. YMMV.

To bring this back to the topic at hand...

I like the idea of dumping abilities that likely won't be used. Why have twenty special powers if ten of them won't see the light of day in actual play? Now, notice I didn't speicify 'in combat' there. I understand the concern that some are expressing about critters only being combat machines. I fully agree that there should be a Spirit/Demon/Oni that can take over the nearby town and that the monster needs charm and illusion based abilities. I just don't think a magic wielding ogre is the one to fill that role and that is what the name "Ogre Mage" says to to me.

We'll just have to wait and see what we get delivered.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I think the Ogre Mage issue was more of a problem with the Role Mearls chose. He designed it more as a bruiser. I suspect that if he chose a Leader role or a Social role for it, we'd end up with a much different beastie.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I, on the other hand, would love if the spined devil stayed that simple, and you just got a big pool of special abilities you could tack on any enemy as you saw fit. If D&D got to be a quick prep game you could DM on the fly but left room and provided tools for enemies with depth, this would be a win-win-situation. YMMV etc.

If there is a pool of special abilities I could use if I want to but don't have to, I would be happy.
Indeed a win-win situation. Let's hope for the best!

 

[Tharen the Damned]

In my experience, both as a DM and a player, 95% of all abilities on a creature with 3 or more special ones never really got used, unless it was the BBEG (who is usually a fairly unique character, rather than just something picked out of the MM). With the whole "it's simple to add class levels to a monster to make it beefier for an encounter," I think a long list of hardly used abilities is a thing of the past.

Sure, most of these abilities will not be used in a fight. But I could use them as they are there.
The Devil is clearly dsigned as a combat encounter. It has no useful abilities listed it could use in Non-Combat encounters. For example, the 3.5 barbed Devil could use greater teleport or major Image. Cool abilities that can even be used as plot devices.

If I have to slap class levels on the monster to get some of these abilities, it does make prep. time longer again.

So, I still hope that more complex Monsters like Demons, Devils, Dragons and so on still have cool abilities that I can use outside of combat.

 

[Adso]

I just dont agree completely with this way of thinking. I'm worried that perhaps 4E is taking this to the extreme--if it doesnt come out on the game table who needs it? You saw that mentality with the Dungeon Delve stuff recently. They were cutting spells and abilities right and left because they were too hard to use for casual DMing in the delve environment. That is not my D&D.

Clark

Huh...it's kinda 1st Edition, with better tech. Just say’n

I think there’s something very comforting to old-timey gamers who've slogged through the prior editions that the amount of prep makes the experience, but too often in 3rd Edition that prep time is wasted on things wasted in a standard encounter. I’d rather have the basics of encounter design be the general things that matter in the meat and potatoes of D&D--the combat round and the action--and leave interesting story details to the whim and of the DM with the interesting narrative ideas under her hat.

Too often in 3e story things have been masquerading as combat rules, which have just complicated the monster to a point to be almost unplayable by all but the truly initiated.

Again, just say’n.

 

[Orcus]

I dont understand what you are "just say'n".

Clark