[Game Design] Do the Stats in Your Fave "Hang Together"

[mythusmage]

That is, were they put in because the designer (possibly you) thought they made sense or should be included, or was there a plan behind it?

Do they describe a character adequately, if at all? How do they describe the character? How rigid or flexible are they in application? How intuitive are they? Or do they take a bit of thought before their 'meaning' becomes clear. Are the stats in your favorite RPG derivative of earlier games? Do they follow an established stating paradigm? Are they different? If so, why?

Thought I'd get a conversation going on the subject. And get threads going on the subject of RPG design. Eventually leading to a forum dedicated to the subject, with conversations of greater breadth, depth, and civility than is found on some other boards. (Names withhold so I don't get suspended for something or other.)

Anyway, do the stats in your fave "hang together"?

 

[mythusmage]

Gee, I stumped the band.

Bump.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking to tell you the truth. :\

 

[Shallown]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Hang Together" But I'll still attempt to answer the question since I would like to see some RPG design forumns or at least more exposure. I think there would be enough members of the community who would be interested. Even if a Small portion.

Like most gamer geeks I designed my own system. Its been evolving for like 15 years. I never plan to publish and use it more or less for my own enjoyment. Publishing is more effort than I want to make.

I use these basic stats.
Strength
Consititution
Agility
Intelligence
Alertness
Willpower
Interaction
and a few dirived stats including Mana/Psi for magic and psionics.


They range 0-100+ with the average human being 35-45 and average adventurer/Character being 45-55.

They can all be improved in the same manner as skills. (Use, practice, training/instruction)

They are woven pretty tightly into the rules being used for magic saves to computing weapon damage, hit points, movement speed etc. Like a lot of system's they are also the Basis of Skills.

hopefully this answered your question if not let me know what you wanted to know in addition.

later

 

[jmucchiello]

Have you considered going where RPG theorists hang out to ask rpg design questions rather than hope such a forum would open here? I mean just look at the forum names and topics at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/ If you like RPG design they should just draw you in. Not one board for RPG design, but many.

 

[mythusmage]

Shallown,

To clarify, is there a scheme behind your stats? Are they part of a coherent whole, or were they included because it looked right? Is there a method to the madness?

jmucchiello,

I've been to The Forge. I've been to the game design forum there. ENWorld is much more open to new ideas, and is far more civil. In my considered opinion I'd get more done discussing game design here than there.

 

[Shallown]

jmucchiello

I think Mythus was saying he has tried other boards and they may not be suited to his style of discussion (trying to be diplomatic). I have been to some other boards and understand what he is getting at in that respect. Enworld has a certain feel of community with out projecting an exclusive feel to it. I won't go into the reasons I don't post but do occasionally read other boards since it wouldn't be fruitful. To say the least their sense of community is not the same as ENworld. I like it here. I want to discuss game design like I do with my friends not like I would with other Game designers, editors, and Professionals. Something more casual and less critical. I understand the need for that if you are trying to publish but for the rest of us I haven't found a good Board yet to post my ,somewhat, more causual thoughts on game design.

Later

 

[Shallown]

Mythus

To clarify, is there a scheme behind your stats? Are they part of a coherent whole, or were they included because it looked right? Is there a method to the madness?


A scheme in the sense that I tried to provide stats that in general would define most anyone/thing. They weren't designed with any sense of symmetry since most designs like that tend to be forced and artificial. I think DC heroes/MEGS is one of the few that comes to mind as working with that symmetry. To be honest this system has evolved and changed over the years and therefore has some more archaic ideas, as far as system design goes, in it. I designed it to define a fantasy world closer to novels I have read than high fantasy.

They are coherent and part of the system and also Look right. It really becomes a matter of opinion in games as to what should be a stat.

I wanted stats to do a few things.

Not replace role playing. So that is why there is Willpower and not wisdom. Common sense level in a character is more roleplaying than numerical. Interaction is defined as how your character acts when your not roleplaying them. It is your day to day every minute being. So you can roleplay brilliantly for a little while but you can't always be "on" if you have a low interaction.

Be broad enough not to have a million of them. I didn't want 10-15 stats as I have seen in some games. Sometimes simplicity is its own reward. I tried to pair them down to what I needed defined in the game to make it as realistic as I needed it. This is one reason interaction is present. I needed a stat to define things in the game about the character and even though you can forgoe having it if you are a charismatic player how do you create a charismatic character for a non charismatic player. I needed interaction for that. You could say I did the same with intelligence which also served to explain/define what the character knows about his world that the player does not know about the characters world.

If I designed a system from the ground up or for a different genre then I would use different stats. I have systems with 4 stats and some with 12. depends on what the genre needs defined and measurable about the characters and their world.

Okay did I ramble or actually answer your question?

later

 

[maddman75]

Well, as someone whose favorite system *isn't* d20, I'll chime in.

Favorite system is Unisystem, as found in both All Flesh Must Be Eaten and Buffy. The stats in that system are pretty similar to d20 - Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower.

They are pretty distinctive, and there's little of the D&D uncertainty as to whether situation X would apply to Int or Wis. Your Int is how good your brain works. Will is how resistant you are - its used for resisting magical attacks, keeping your cool under fire, and to resist fear. Perception takes the place of Spot/Listen/Search in d20, though there's a Notice skill so you can improve this as well if you like.

You'll note a lack of Charisma. Its one of the weakest stats in 3e, and was even weaker in AD&D. And its the source of many misunderstandings, as it subsumes both appearance and leadership ability, In Unisystem personal charisma can be purchased as a Quality, as can Appearance. Or you can take either as a drawback if you want to be unlikable or ugly. Most characters are average.

 

[takyris]

In the system I've come up with (but never used -- my players are fine with d20), I've got:

Vitality: used for melee damage and health, and for saves against poisons, diseases, and physical transformation magics. Incorporates some of both Strength and Constitution from d20.
Agility: used for melee attack rolls and defense, as well as saves against area effect attacks and other "dodging out of the way" type saves. Mostly Dexterity from d20.
Perception: used for ranged attacks, all skills involving observation, Initiative checks, and saves against illusions. Includes some aspects of Dexterity and some aspects of Wisdom from d20.
Intelligence: used for skill points, skills involving knowledge, and saves against mind-affecting spells like charms, as well as nonmagical mind-affecting tricks. As Intelligence in d20.
Dynamics: used to modify interpersonal relations skills and saves against magic that affects the very nature of the soul, like death spells. A little bit of Wisdom and a lot of Charisma from d20.

I like Vitality because, while it's possible to have a Strong person who gets sick a lot or a monstrously healthy person who isn't terribly strong, it's not common in d20, or, really, in real-life. If you're an Olympic athlete in terms of your ability to jump and run fast, you should also have a pretty decently healthy body, unless you want to take a weakness for aching joints or permanently torn muscles or something.

I like Agility because it answers all of the "Why don't you use Dex to attack instead of Strength" questions.

I like Perception because it lets a sniper-type character focus primarily in one stat. In the d20 system, a sniper needs to have a great Dex to aim, and a pretty good Wisdom to spot things well. In this system (the VAPID system, as I've named it), the same skill covers both. It also serves to get rid of most of the need for Wisdom, since I don't really like Wisdom. I feel much more comfortable having somebody play an Int much higher or lower than their own than I do having someone play a Wisdom much higher or lower than their own. Wisdom is tough. And, really, it's oftimes more of a roleplaying decision than anything else. So I ditched the "understanding of the universe" stuff and popped the observational part over into Perception, the common-sense part into Intelligence, and the Will save across a few different abilities.

Int is fine. But then, I'm making this for a skill-intensive game where Int is a precious commodity.

Dynamics doesn't presuppose likeability. On Homicide, Frank Pembleton isn't likeable. He's not nice. He's not friendly. He's not pleasant. What he is is a dogged investigator who is brilliant at getting information out of people, whether it be by intimidating them into talking, tricking them into admitting they were at the scene, or getting inside their heads and showing them that he already knew how it had all happened. It's possible to have a friendly, nice guy who is such a pushover that he never pushes people to get what he really wants. So Charisma is sort of gone, but the mechanical ability to be better at interacting with others remains there.

Five abilities, five saving throws.