Game design has "moved on"

[Warunsun]

Plus clearly the Enterprise-A is the best one.

Most of my life I have felt the same way. However, lately, sometimes I think the original one with it sleek and clean look is a touch bit better looking. One must not dismiss the power of nostalgia. It helps that I can watch Trek today in high definition on better TVs than the old black & white 13 inch I had when I watched it as a child in re-runs. The point is the power of nostalgia affects everyone's views including on games.

 

[Morrus]

Most of my life I have felt the same way. However, lately, sometimes I think the original one with it sleek and clean look is a touch bit better looking. One must not dismiss the power of nostalgia. It helps that I can watch Trek today in high definition on better TVs than the old black & white 13 inch I had when I watched it as a child in re-runs. The point is the power of nostalgia affects everyone's views including on games.

The new one is prettier, but it looks small to me. It comes across more like the size of Serenity; maybe a little larger. I'm not sure why, but I tend to feel that if I didn't already know that the Enterprise is a big ship, I wouldn't come to that conclusion from the Abrahms movies.

 

[Warunsun]

I'm not sure why, but I tend to feel that if I didn't already know that the Enterprise is a big ship, I wouldn't come to that conclusion from the Abrahms movies.

The funny thing is that the Enterprise in the re-imagined movie series is actually three times bigger. That Enterprise is 725 meters long (bigger than even the Enterprise-D).

 

[Morrus]

The funny thing is that the Enterprise in the re-imagined movie series is actually three times bigger. That Enterprise is 725 meters long (bigger than even the Enterprise-D).

And yet it feels smaller! I can't pin down why, though.

 

[Lwaxy]

I don't even watch the new pseudo-Star Trek. I just hate reboots of any kind for any reason, but that's going off topic

I am not of the opinion that the older rules were all the better. It was just that it was standard and even expected to change stuff and make things up on the fly (going from D&D-like games here). Nowadays, too many players and GMs intend to stick with the rules so religiously it is hard to do something off the beaten path at times, and even if it is easy enough to agree on some changes are necessary, to get people to agree which ones, if you aren't the sole GM, is a big hassle at times. Premise has moved from "rules are guidelines" to "rules are rules."

Yeah there are "easier" systems out there, which doesn't help if you can't find a group for them or you don't have the time and want to learn something altogether new which can also do what D&D/PF can do.

 

[GreyLord]

Ooh, careful there.... I don't think the numbers support you there.

You agree with me on smartphones. But, check it out - in the US, 56% of adults have smartphones.

But, according to Morrus' "Hot Games" page, which takes a pretty broad sampling, less than 5% of D&D discussion is about the OSR and those old games.

Sure, WotC reissued the old core books. But I think that was to fuel nostalgia, and to show the range of thought in the company. I don't think there's call to say there are enough OSR folks themselves to have made them a real business driver.

If we look at cell phones, and say, at 56% penetration, that really, the new tech is in, and the old tech is out, when we look at OSR, which is quite clearly way, way down the list of games people are playing, should we not say the same thing?

I'm going to point out something that isn't very easy, and hopefully will not be taken the wrong way, however ENworld's reputation is not really a hidden secret to anyone who is an Old School Gamer.

ANY survey from ENworld in regards to OS or OSR folks is unreliable. ENworld has the reputation of being the most hostile forum to anyone who plays a form of D&D prior to 3e. ENworld has chased off most of this audience and they go to just about any other forum than ENworld at this point. ENworld has banned, criticized, and put down the older editions to the point that hardly any of that audience comes to ENworld. Any numbers in regards to that audience from ENworld are unreliable as a result. It would be like asking how many atheist topics are popping up on the Anglican forums. I'm not saying the information is absolutely flawed in the survey information, as it may be drawn from many different sites...but I'd say unreliable as Enworld has shown a distinct bias against the old gamers. As such, most Old school gamers have nothing to do with ENworld, and I would be highly surprised if Enworld has knowledge of most of their hangouts/forums/blogs and sites. There are over 1000 of such sites...possibly several thousand...and I don't think Enworld has even touched on even a small percentage of them.

THAT SAID...I agree with the statements that OSR is incredibly small. IT IS MY OPINION that even that 5% is HIGHER than the market penetration of the OSR movement. I've heard several times that the amount made from most of the OSR folks isn't really enough for a good business design and that they do it more out of love rather than financial reasons. There are some that are successful, but my thoughts are that the OSR folks are far smaller than even the percentage stated above, and that the amount of threads and such created by it make far more noise than the number of folks that are it's audience. IN MY OPINION...once again.

NOW that is specifically for OSR. With OSG (Old school gaming) that audience is potentially massive. Even WotC never had those numbers. If I recall right, Dragon had over 150K subscribers with TSR. WotC I think had around 30-60K? That estimate of 25 million lapsed players, may be accurate. There are a HUGE number of them. However...getting them to play D&D now...I don't know if that's going to happen.

Many of them played D&D when it was cool to play D&D. We're talking the jocks and everyone else playing in the US. Furthermore, it was something they did when they were far younger. Its' sort of like that He-man or Pokémon fads that went around. Is it really possible to resurrect that nostalgia...maybe...with the right advertising campaign and right people...but I haven't seen that from WotC yet.

The closest that ever came was 3e. I'd put that success more in line with the A-Team movie rather than the Transformer's movies that came out. Interesting, but Magic overshadows D&D basically.

However, I still put D&D as an art rather than a technology. This conversation mirrors art conversations in regards to Modern art and post 19th century art vs. are prior to that amongst art savants. The way this conversation mirrors those types of conversation (well, except in art...it appears that while on the forums you might only get 5% who prefer art forms prior to the 20th century art...in the general populace a great majority prefer something older than modern art...then...maybe no so off...the great majority of people prefer monopoly over D20 games).

 

[Morrus]

I ENworld has banned, criticized, and put down the older editions to the point that hardly any of that audience comes to ENworld.

For the record, for those reading, "EN World", being *me*, has not done this. I have not banned, criticized or put down any older editions. GreyLord is not telling the truth here. I adore older editions (I think I was one of the first ever OSRIC customers; and - at the opposite end of the timescale - I just spent an hour chatting to Sarah Newton about Monsters & Magic and bought a copy directly from her at Dragonmeet). Though why I feel the need to supply any "credentials" to you is beyond me.

Though I am curious as to why that page so frequently generates aggressive accusations of dishonesty and lies from OSR fans. I get them about once a week (usually on G+), and it largely feels like organized bullying. I'm not sure what the common denominator is; I'm tempted to just remove OSR games from the list for an easier life (well, hide them from public view; I'm personally still interested in the stats; but if they bother folks, I can keep them to myself). It's just some games, guys. It's just some games. It's. Just. Some. Games. It's not evaluating the moral worth of your sexuality or religion or anything. It's just people talking about some games. If you're upset or angry because of some game stats, please look elsewhere for the cause. I assure you, it can't be possibly those stats. Not even if the stats were wildly inaccurate, it still couldn't be those stats.

There are over 1000 of such sites...

Yes. I'm sure there are. That's why the system measures over a thousand sites. The stats have very little to do with EN World.

 

[GreyLord]

For the record, for those reading, "EN World", being *me*, has not done this. I have not banned, criticized or put down any older editions. GreyLord is not telling the truth here. I adore older editions (I think I was one of the first ever OSRIC customers; and - at the opposite end of the timescale - I just spent an hour chatting to Sarah Newton about Monsters & Magic and bought a copy directly from her at Dragonmeet). Though why I feel the need to supply any "credentials" to you is beyond me.

Though I am curious as to why that page so frequently generates aggressive accusations of dishonesty and lies from OSR fans. I get them about once a week (usually on G+), and it largely feels like organized bullying. I'm not sure what the common denominator is; I'm tempted to just remove OSR games from the list for an easier life (well, hide them from public view; I'm personally still interested in the stats; but if they bother folks, I can keep them to myself). It's just some games, guys. It's just some games. It's. Just. Some. Games. It's not evaluating the moral worth of your sexuality or religion or anything. It's just people talking about some games. If you're upset or angry because of some game stats, please look elsewhere for the cause. I assure you, it can't be possibly those stats. Not even if the stats were wildly inaccurate, it still couldn't be those stats.



Yes. I'm sure there are. That's why the system measures over a thousand sites. The stats have very little to do with EN World.

I am not accusing YOU specifically, Morrus. I apologize if you took it that way.

I AM interested in some of those stats, truth to tell.

My point was NOT to accuse, but to express my OWN personal opinion.

 

[Morrus]

I am not accusing YOU specifically, Morrus. I apologize if you took it that way.

Who were you accusing, then? This is just my daily news blog with a messageboard attached, and a couple of generous volunteers who offer their spare time to help moderate the forum. There's nobody to accuse except me.

 

[GreyLord]

Who were you accusing, then? This is just my daily news blog with a messageboard attached, and a couple of generous volunteers who offer their spare time to help moderate the forum. There's nobody to accuse except me.

I'm sorry you are taking this as an accusation. I'm simply stating an observation on my part. If you are getting others stating hostility towards older editions, perhaps you should analyze what's actually going on in regards to them and what's happening if they bring on certain inclinations. There has been a rather hostile atmosphere on these forums against Old style gamers in the past. This idea has driven away many. This opinion (whether it is correct at the present or not) still resides towards ENworld due to this.

I apologize once again, my post was NOT to derail this topic into devolving into Enworld's atmosphere towards a certain segment of gamers. Instead it was to point out that I may entirely trust the results of that article in regards to the OSR movement and why. However, I can see that this is a great distraction to some, I apologize as that was not my intent, and was only one paragraph of several.

My real intent is more relavant to the topic. I propose we drop this line of discussion in this topic so that it can get back on track in regards to whether RPG design has moved on, or what exactly it means in regards to technology and/or art. I apologize to all if that paragraph I posted has derailed what was an interesting and unique conversation and hopefully the topic can return to that.