• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Game Mechanics And Player Agency

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.


From the very first iteration of Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, there have been mechanics in place in RPGs to force certain decisions upon players. A classic D&D example is the charm person spell, which allows the spell caster to bring someone under their control and command. (The 1983 D&D Basic Set even includes such a possible outcome in its very first tutorial adventure, in which your hapless Fighter may fall under the sway of Bargle and "decide" to let the outlaw magic-user go free even after murdering your friend Aleena!)

It didn't take long for other RPGs to start experimenting with even greater mechanical methods of limiting player agency. Call of Cthulhu (1981) introduced the Sanity mechanic as a way of tracking the player-characters' mental stress and degeneration in the face of mind-blasting horrors. But the Temporary Insanity rules also dictated that PCs exposed to particularly nasty shocks were no longer necessarily in control of their own actions. The current edition of the game even gives the Call of Cthulhu GM carte blanche to dictate the hapless investigator's fate, having the PC come to their senses hours later having been robbed, beaten, or even institutionalized!

King Arthur Pendragon debuted in 1985 featuring even more radical behavioral mechanics. The game's system of Traits and Passions perfectly mirrors the Arthurian tales, in which normally sensible and virtuous knights and ladies with everything to lose risk it all in the name of love, hatred, vengeance, or petty jealousy. So too are the player-knights of the game driven to foolhardy heroism or destructive madness, quite often against the players' wishes. Indeed, suffering a bout of madness in Pendragon is enough to put a player-knight out of the game sometimes for (quite literally) many game-years on end…and if the player-knight does return, they are apt to have undergone significant trauma reflected in altered statistics.

The legacies of Call of Cthulhu and King Arthur Pendragon have influenced numerous other game designs down to this day, and although the charm person spell is not nearly as all-powerful as it was when first introduced in 1974 ("If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the 'charm' is dispelled[.]"), it and many other mind-affecting spells and items continue to bedevil D&D adventurers of all types.

Infringing on player agency calls for great care in any circumstance. As alluded to at the top of this article, GMs already have so much power in the game, that to appear to take any away from the players is bound to rankle. This is likely why games developed mechanical means to allow GMs to do so in order to make for a more interesting story without appearing biased or arbitrary. Most players, after all, would refuse to voluntarily submit to the will of an evil wizard, to faint or flee screaming in the presence of cosmic horror, or to attack an ally or lover in a blind rage. Yet these moments are often the most memorable of a campaign, and they are facilitated by behavioral mechanics.

What do you think? What's your personal "red line" for behavioral mechanics? Do behavioral mechanics have any place in RPGs, and if so, to what extent? Most crucially: do they enhance narrative or detract from it?

contributed by David Larkins
 

log in or register to remove this ad

pemerton

Legend
You've suddenly changed skills into a something used to determine general success (that is, Intransitive) into something that has an explicit effect on others (Transitive).
I don't really follow this. How can success in an attempt to persuade someone (using CHA/Persuasion) or to hide from someone (using DEX/Stealth) or to erase someone's sigil (using INT/Arcana) or to beat someone in a rase (using STR/Athletics) be divorced from the effect it has on someone?

I guess I don't really get the idea of "general success" in contexts - of which there are many - where the goal of the action is to defeat or affect someone else.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I don't really follow this. How can success in an attempt to persuade someone (using CHA/Persuasion) or to hide from someone (using DEX/Stealth) or to erase someone's sigil (using INT/Arcana) or to beat someone in a rase (using STR/Athletics) be divorced from the effect it has on someone?

I guess I don't really get the idea of "general success" in contexts - of which there are many - where the goal of the action is to defeat or affect someone else.

Stealth determines how well you are hiding. The other guy uses Perception to determine how well they are noticing.

Presumably Arcana to erase a sigil affects the sigil, not the caster, and in any event would have a DC based on the caster's level/ability.

Beating somebody in a race would be an opposed Athletics check. You are each rolling for your own success; you rolling well doesn't make the other person go slower.

How does that work for Persuasion?

And....on top of all of that, I still have strong opposition to anything that tells me what my character thinks. You have given this example of "You may think of yourself as the best fighter around, but if you keep getting beaten you won't be able to keep believing that, so the mechanics do affect why you think." Or something like that.

I disagree. I may lose every single fight, but if I want my character to still think he's the baddest dude ever...who just happens to have excuses for all those losses...that's my business, not the DMs.
 


hawkeyefan

Legend
Again, I think what you're identifying here is a bad mechanic. There's no actual game I know of that involves social mechanics that works as you describe. Burning Wheel comes closest, but its Persuasion skill pertains to requests or proposals, not full-scale conversion, and the obstacle penalty in these circumstances would be +2 (so Hitler might be rolling 7 or 8 dice hoping to get 4+ on 6 of them, if the spy has Will 4 - which would be at the lower end for a top-notch spy).

Furthermore, in BW the player is always free to call for a Duel of Wits if s/he thinks it's a big deal. So instead of just being persuaded on a single check, s/he can start debating the point with Hitler and have the thing unfold as a debate or argument between them. If Hitler wins that DoW, then that is the outcome of a sustained piece of resolution in which the player matched his/her PC against Hitler!

The basic orientation of BW is fight for what you believe, which brings with it the possibility of finding out that, on this occasion at least, you didn't quite have what it takes.

In Burning Wheel, the Intimidate skill can be used to force a Steel check. Various actions in a Duel of Wits can also have this effect.

In Cortex+ Heroic, a character can make a check to inflict a fear-related complication, or emotional stress, on another character. PCs and NPCs are completely symmetrical in this respect. The same reolution system is used to determine wither Wolverine scares someone with his claws, whether a telepath scares someone by forcing them to recall a frightening memory, or whether a dragon scares someone with its aura of fear.

A lot of your approach to this discussion seems to be adopting a 5e take on this - for instance, your conception of what skills are and what they're for. As best I understand it, 5e has fairly unclear rules for determining the consequences of skill checks whether made by players for PCs or by the GM for NPCs.

As is probably clear, I'm not coming from a particularly 5e point of view. When I think of D&D skills my paradigm is 4e, and there is no inherent difference between skills and other capabilities in 4e. (Though 4e does not, in general, have robust NPC-to-PC influence mechanics, because it's main mechanic for handling the outcomes of skill checks - namely, the skill challenge - is entirely a player-side thing.)

That said, nothing about 4e would stop the GM having a creature make an Intimidation check to inflict a round of dazed on a PC, or perhaps 1 square of forced movement back. This is part of the broader "p 42" system for determining checks and consequences of checks in 4e, as amplified by a mix of common sense and the late wrecan's article on how to adjudicate non-damage consequences.

Don't all elements of character build give the player of the character some way or other of overcoming obstacles or changing the fiction in some desired fashion?

My example with Hitler was a bit exaggerated for effect and to clearly demonstrate the concern that folks seem to have.

I’m not calling for games that have such mechanics to discard them, or saying that allowing NPC skills to dictate PC behavior is always bad. I’m just saying when a rules system doesn’t have clear mechanics in this area, and yes 5E fits that bill, then the way I handle it is by having players make checks rather than NPCs.

Generally, I want to allow the players to decide how their characters behave and react in all but extreme circumstances. And this works for my game.

I actually prefer the looser skill rules.
 



Tony Vargas

Legend
Even if the target was a PC and the Diplomancer an NPC?
Technically? Not sure, it's been a while, and my strongest memories on the subject are of 1e's morale rules (PCs never check morale).
But the spirit of 3.x tended towards the same rules applying to everyone.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
A 3.x Diplomancer could turn a hateful enemy into a fanatically loyal follower with a mere 150 DC check.

You joke, but you could shift someone from Hostile to Indifferent with a DC 25 skill check.

Going from Hostile to Helpful was DC 50. Which isn’t impossible at high levels, but not very likely. But you didn’t ever need to go that far. Indifferent was usually enough. They go from hating you and being willing to take risks to harm you to not caring about you at all.
 

pemerton

Legend
Stealth determines how well you are hiding. The other guy uses Perception to determine how well they are noticing.

Presumably Arcana to erase a sigil affects the sigil, not the caster, and in any event would have a DC based on the caster's level/ability.

Beating somebody in a race would be an opposed Athletics check. You are each rolling for your own success; you rolling well doesn't make the other person go slower.

How does that work for Persuasion?
You oppose with Will, or Resolve, or Stubbornness. At least, that's how it works in the systems I'm familiar with.

I still have strong opposition to anything that tells me what my character thinks. You have given this example of "You may think of yourself as the best fighter around, but if you keep getting beaten you won't be able to keep believing that, so the mechanics do affect why you think." Or something like that.

I disagree. I may lose every single fight, but if I want my character to still think he's the baddest dude ever...who just happens to have excuses for all those losses...that's my business, not the DMs.
I was focusing not on the character's self-conception, but the player's conception of the character.
 

pemerton

Legend
You joke, but you could shift someone from Hostile to Indifferent with a DC 25 skill check.

Going from Hostile to Helpful was DC 50. Which isn’t impossible at high levels, but not very likely. But you didn’t ever need to go that far. Indifferent was usually enough. They go from hating you and being willing to take risks to harm you to not caring about you at all.
This is another example of bad mechanics: the DC doesn't reflect the fiction. Compare the combat system, where Captain America's physical resolve is reflected not just in AC but also hit points.

(I'm not a 3E/PF expert, so I'm taking the presentation of those systems at face value.)
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top