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Games Workshop notes that space fascism would be bad

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
GW wants their games to become multimedia franchises. They don't want to sell only miniatures, but also videogames, comics, novels and other products. But with the W40K if I sense the feeling of "I am surrounded by stupid!", the characters like the space marines are very powerful in the battlefield, but intellectually they leave much to be desired if we compare with others from other franchises.

Some reboots work, sometimes even better than the original ones.

The old warhammer could return, at least because they are making with the Total-War videogames.

* The time travel is almost canon in W40K. This means there is a open door if it was necessary in a future.

Old Warhammer is returning, GW has literally announced an "Old World" product that brings back square bases (and base trays) in the vein of the pre-AoS game.

No timetravel is required, as it will be set in the Three Emperors period of the Old World.

 

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Scribe

Hero
The background would keep being relatively darkgrimm but with space for the hope, or the rebellion against the system, or in some places different alien races could colive together against a common menace.
No thanks. Literally misses the whole point of the setting.

I dont want 40K to change 1 tiny bit, ever. ;)
 

MGibster

Legend
I gotta say, I realize the setting isn't everyone's cup of tea and that's cool. But given the success of Games Workshop with Warhammer 40k, I would say the lore isn't really a problem for most people.
 

Scribe

Hero
I gotta say, I realize the setting isn't everyone's cup of tea and that's cool. But given the success of Games Workshop with Warhammer 40k, I would say the lore isn't really a problem for most people.
I've come to believe that 'most people' just run with the idea that they are the good guys. Which is kinda the root of the issue, but yeah.

I'm not saying everyone has to like it, but 40K is the trope maker for grimdark, and it should remain as such. We have enough settings for 'hope' and 'progress' give me 1 depressing nihilistic mess, please.
 



Intensifies Starship Troopers GIF


Verhoeven's Robocop/Total Recall/Starship Troopers trifecta is a wonderful set of movies subverting the tropes they embody.

Would you like to know more?
 

Azuresun

Adventurer
OI've actually been rather impressed by how GW handles lore changes. They do it slowly and typically without acknowledging that they've actually changed it. One day they just stop referencing something and its as if it never happened. Or sometimes, as in the case of Squats, their home world gets devoured by Tyranids.

One little detail that I love is that there is, in-setting, a branch of the Inquisition dedicated to making the history of the Imperium and the wider galaxy as confusing and contradictory as possible.
 

jasper

Rotten DM

It's astounding that this had to be said but... here we are.
My solution would be to totally drop the human faction. Sell no more space facists armies. Ban the Human only faction from play. But that would affect Warhammers profit margin.
 

MGibster

Legend
My solution would be to totally drop the human faction. Sell no more space facists armies. Ban the Human only faction from play. But that would affect Warhammers profit margin.
That's not really a viable solution. I happen to like my Imperial Fists and my House Raven Imperial Knights. If I were to start another army it'd probably by Imperial Guard (I'm to old school to call them Astra Minitarum). And quite frankly, it's not as if the Xenos armies or chaos are much better. It's not like I'd be happy with the Tau coming to pay my planet a visit.
 

Scribe

Hero
My solution would be to totally drop the human faction. Sell no more space facists armies. Ban the Human only faction from play. But that would affect Warhammers profit margin.
Thats not a solution at all.

The solution, is to go back to writing the fiction/lore, in a way that makes it clear that the Imperium is actually the bad guy of the setting, to stop trying to paint the Imperium as noble in any way, and to just hammer home the point that the whole of the Imperium needs to be burned to the ground.

cough

/Team Chaos.
 

MGibster

Legend
The solution, is to go back to writing the fiction/lore, in a way that makes it clear that the Imperium is actually the bad guy of the setting, to stop trying to paint the Imperium as noble in any way, and to just hammer home the point that the whole of the Imperium needs to be burned to the ground.
This seems unlikely. With GW gaining a more mainstream audience, they'll continue to dial back the evils of the Imperium by ushering in the promise of a new golden age. That's kind of what primaris marines are all about.
 

gorice

Explorer
The whole thing with primaris and the Robot Girlyman resurrection is a big missed opportunity, honestly. They could have split the imperium into various factions locked in a civil war, which would let them have both revanchists and revolutionaries locked in a civil war, while doubling down on the 'only war' and space feudalism stuff. Then people could choose their poison.
 

Scribe

Hero
This seems unlikely. With GW gaining a more mainstream audience, they'll continue to dial back the evils of the Imperium by ushering in the promise of a new golden age. That's kind of what primaris marines are all about.
In a surprise to nobody, this is the exact wrong approach in my opinion.
 

MGibster

Legend
In a surprise to nobody, this is the exact wrong approach in my opinion.
As we've discussed on this message board in regards to D&D, after so many decades, the audience has changed. They're made up of a more diverse population with different values and experiences from the audience in the 80s and 90s. To remain relevant, the game must change.
 

Scribe

Hero
As we've discussed on this message board in regards to D&D, after so many decades, the audience has changed. They're made up of a more diverse population with different values and experiences from the audience in the 80s and 90s. To remain relevant, the game must change.
I disagree.

40K can remain 40K, and be as successful as it deserves based on the fact it isnt just the same thing as everything else.

To remove the terrible state of affairs, is to remove what makes 40K what it is.

I mean the $$$ speaks, and ultimately you are right its just a matter of time, but it will be a lesser product when they do change in the way you are describing.
 

Myrdin Potter

Adventurer
As has been pointed out, WH 40K lore is all about why the models fight each other. I don’t find the Imperium to be bad guys in comparison to all the others that are being fought against. All the different factions are racists that hate everyone else and have their entire societies devoted to war.

The humans are a little easier to identify with, maybe, and they are at risk of being exterminated so maybe that is why the crazed leaders are in charge as they are keeping the humans alive (so far).

As for Starship Troopers, the director screwed up. He took a book written by a failed left wing politician where the bugs were his stand-in for communists and used the basic story and quite a bit of the dialogue without the director ever actually reading the book. So he made a direct satire and then screwed up because the source material was the opposite. I loved the movie because it proves how powerful the ideas that Heinlein presented in the novel really were.

The only unforgivable change for me that the director made was making the protagonist a white guy when the book clearly has him as Filipino. To see a book written when it was with a POC as the hero also had a big effect on me when I read it when I was 12 or so. (I am white and most of the foundation SF I was reading 40+ years ago had heroic whites as pretty much everyone in the books).
 


As has been pointed out, WH 40K lore is all about why the models fight each other. I don’t find the Imperium to be bad guys in comparison to all the others that are being fought against. All the different factions are racists that hate everyone else and have their entire societies devoted to war.

The humans are a little easier to identify with, maybe, and they are at risk of being exterminated so maybe that is why the crazed leaders are in charge as they are keeping the humans alive (so far).
They're certainly all bad, and Chaos generally is certainly WORSE than the Imperium, but that's not saying much for the Imperium, which is tragicomically awful.

As for Starship Troopers, the director screwed up. He took a book written by a failed left wing politician where the bugs were his stand-in for communists and used the basic story and quite a bit of the dialogue without the director ever actually reading the book. So he made a direct satire and then screwed up because the source material was the opposite. I loved the movie because it proves how powerful the ideas that Heinlein presented in the novel really were.
I don't think Verhoeven screwed up. He didn't understand or deliberately distorted the message of the book, but he made the movie satire of fascism that he intended to make. Yes, he kind of micturated on Heinlein's grave, but the movie is fundamentally successful as what it was trying to do, which (perhaps sadly) wasn't to be a faithful rendition of Heinlein's book. (Also, maybe I'm quibbling a little, but "failed politician" seems like a funny way to describe Heinlein. :D )

The only unforgivable change for me that the director made was making the protagonist a white guy when the book clearly has him as Filipino. To see a book written when it was with a POC as the hero also had a big effect on me when I read it when I was 12 or so. (I am white and most of the foundation SF I was reading 40+ years ago had heroic whites as pretty much everyone in the books).
It makes sense for the movie Verhoeven made. He needed an "Aryan" poster boy for his fascism send-up. I do think, of course, that any real (faithful) Starship Troopers movie would and should of course show Johnny as Filipino. While Heinlein was in some ways a reactionary, and ST was written at perhaps the height of those tendencies in him, his progressivism on race was almost always (a few dark spots like in Farmham's Freehold aside) one of his better qualities.
 
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