Gaming Pornography: Will 4th Edition lead to a more Realistic and Useful Game?

[EricNoah]

Ah, ha, good one !

 

[Nifft]

Ah, ha, good one !

Don't make me teach you how to quote...

Cheers, -- N

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

How many 4E threads has Nifft won now?

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I haven't read the entirety of this thread, mostly just the OP and a few of the snide comments that followed. However...

For the most part, I agree with the OP. I fell in love with D&D because my cousin sold it to me based on the line "you can do anything you want." My initial reaction to that wasn't daydreaming about killing evil gods or being a sentient golem, it was thoughts of facing down a minotaur in the forest and reflecting the sun off a mirror to temporarily daze him so I could hide.

It was fantasy, but fantasy grounded in reality.

D&D is not fantasy grounded in reality. It is D&D grounded in.... D&D. I've often said on game night that we can play poker, video games, D&D, card games, or a fantasy RPG. Yes, that's D&D or a fantasy RPG.

Now I understand that D&D is technically a fantasy RPG. You assume a role, and play it out in a fantasy setting. But the way the game is designed, you concentrate mainly on killing the monsters and taking the loot. Work the system. Pick the right feats. Miniatures. Battle mats. Using the books...all those books, and working the system. Red dragons breath fire. They are immune to fire. They hate cold. Ogres have reach. Careful not to provoke that Attack of Opportunity. Better to give up your full attack and wade in with 5' steps...

In my view, D&D has become a beast unto itself. There are fantasy RPGs, and there is D&D. Logic and flavor have been thrown out and replaced with game rules. In the new edition, a cleric can heal his companions when he strikes a critical hit. That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. From a rules standpoint, it's great. But it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

D&D has become about the rules first, and the gaming flavor second.

Now don't take this as a troll. I love D&D. I've got hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of D&D books, and I'll buy 4e on day one. But I buy it knowing that I'm getting D&D, which I consider a lite hearted blast through the dungeon where over the top heroes slay the evil monsters. In my mind, its a great game, but inspired heavily by cartoons and comics. And sometimes I'm in the mood for just that.

But for a more serious fantasy RPG, I've turned to GURPS, a system that relates much better to reality. And with a realistic baseline, I can move outward, introducing fantasy at the levels I desire.

To get that more serious, realistic game, I feel like I have to scale D&D back. But because of the system, that's very difficult. With GURPS, I can start at nitty gritty realism, and layer on the supernatural as needed, which is much easier.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D has always been kind of goofy monster-ripping, dungeon-bashing, gold-nabbing fun though, hasn't it? OK, apart from 2e. I mean gelatinous cubes? Puddings? We're surely not meant to take beholders seriously. The pulps it's mostly based on have that same fun quality - a lot of violence, a little sex. Two-fisted, bare-chested heroes kicking the cr@p out of dinosaurs in a world that never was.

People have got a bit jaded with dinosaurs now though so for the same fix they have to be a tiefling wuxia martial artist kicking the cr@p out of a two-headed dinosaur. But it basically hits the same spot as 1e did.

It's all what Jack7 would call porn in the sense that it appeals to our baser instincts. It's quick thrills, over-the-top, lurid entertainment. In a word, pulp.

 

[Nifft]

D&D is not fantasy grounded in reality. It is D&D grounded in.... D&D. I've often said on game night that we can play poker, video games, D&D, card games, or a fantasy RPG. Yes, that's D&D or a fantasy RPG.

Someone else in this thread said something very smart: there's an essential tension in D&D. There's tension between the role-play and wargaming aspects of D&D's heritage, and of course the tension between "realism" and "game-ism".

All RPGs will have this tension. I agree with the original poster that it's impossible to resolve this tension -- the goals of "game" and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

So the thing that makes D&D so successful IMHO is that it finds a good balance between these contradictions, and allows enough breadth of play-styles to accommodate vastly different players at the same table. It's no-one's perfect game, but everyone's "good enough" game.

And that's good enough for me.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Abisashi]

[Flumph Rap]

This deserves an award. Maybe the ENnies should include a song category?

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Someone else in this thread said something very smart: there's an essential tension in D&D. There's tension between the role-play and wargaming aspects of D&D's heritage, and of course the tension between "realism" and "game-ism".

All RPGs will have this tension. I agree with the original poster that it's impossible to resolve this tension -- the goals of "game" and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

So the thing that makes D&D so successful IMHO is that it finds a good balance between these contradictions, and allows enough breadth of play-styles to accommodate vastly different players at the same table. It's no-one's perfect game, but everyone's "good enough" game.

And that's good enough for me.

Cheers, -- N

I'd say that D&D doesn't strike a good balance between "realism" and "game-ism". It's just that it does the "game-ism" part VERY WELL. It does such a good job that people familiar with it would rather try to tweak it for more realism than try a different game which may actually provide a better balance. Sadly, few have the time, money and/or energy to learn the ins and outs of a new rule set, so they stick to D&D.

Personally, I feel that D&D is too much "game" for serious role-playing. It's crunchiness is a distraction. But for the more over the top stuff with less focus on story and drama, it's wonderful.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I no longer have any idea what the OP wants as he's concealed what he's saying so thoroughly with words. Smarter players? A good old chinwag about politics between rolls to hit orcs? Some sort of narrativism or simulationism? Or maybe just simpler rules so there's less rules-talk at the table.

This last might actually be provided by 4e, but I don't think he'll like the tiefling paladins. Or maybe he will.

 

[Piratecat]

There have been some excellent points along the way! But when the thread degenerates to porn references, (pretty darn good) flumph rap, and people telling other people what they must think, I think it's about done. Say goodnight, folks!

Klunk.