Gaming Theory: M&M 2nd with Hit Points

[Walking Dad]

Sorry, I meant 'comparable' Power level. A character with a 'Powered Class' at CL11 should (usually) be as challenged by a CR 12 creature as a character with levels in only classes from the d20 modern core book.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Hit Dice and Hit Points
M&M assumes a certain kind of hit dice: 1d6 per point of Con Bonus, or 1d10 per Toughness if the character has no Con bonus. These are just made static (3 or 5). This is to make squishy humans be squishy (14 con gets 20 hp; 10 con gets 10 hp; heavy pistol does 2d6).
So a PL 15 50 Con super has 20d6+50 hp, with 3 hp per die, for a total of 110. Throw in the Impervious Toughness 10 damage reduction, and he's knocking 20 damage off of every incoming attack.
He's super-hero tough, though not as much so as he was in M&M. (Blaster rifle does 6d6 damage, 6 to 36, average 21, which means it can hurt him regularly, something it couldn't do in M&M 2e.)

Why does the Mastermind's Manual not list Hit Dice? Because nothing in the M&M power system is limited to a certain number of hit dice of effect (like sleep in D&D). Therefore it's completely unnecessary for that system.
So, what to do? Borrow the BESM hit dice system. They already have a points cost for HD, and the associated HP. If 50 Con pays the 3 points per level for d12's then he's on 15d12+300, average 397. That's impressively super-tough, unless your dealing in Mega Damage.

Did that help?

 

[Walking Dad]

Thanks. I know the anime 20 srd and know it's common roots with M&M, too. What I didn't liked was the ability to buy more HDs. I'm also not certain that increasing the HD should cost the same as increasing the skill points by 2. But Pathfinder roughly agrees with the later (Favored class options)

 

[Aus_Snow]

One of the guys over at the Atomic Think Tank had a vastly superior system for using HP with M&M 2e, IIRC.

Can't remember who exactly, and I don't have a link, but searching there, or site-specifically via Google, might turn up something useful.

The only thing I'm absolutely sure of, from direct and indirect experience and observation, is that most "d20"/OGL systems are thoroughly incompatible with one another, in a whole variety of ways. Despite the "commonality", or the idea of it at least...

You could, most certainly, spend a lot of time and effort attempting to make them fit together. Alternatively, that very same time and effort could be spent (IMO more wisely and productively, and potentially more profitably...) designing *your own* subsystems/hacks/variants. But hey, to each their own.

 

[Walking Dad]

Making an own system is what I want to do in the end. I'm working on a modern d20 / anime d20 hybrid with some of the Pathfinder 'updates' in another thread. But not having access to the SAS d20 PMVs hurts the Attributes customization quite a bit, so I'm looking for a way to use the M&M 2nd Powers instead.

Will try to find the HP hack in the other forum. Thanks!

Edit: The threads were only how to balance Hit Points in M&M only, with not much data how to balance the powers to existing HP systems, but some were quite enlightening.

[sblock]http://www.atomicthinktank.com/view...p=771466&hilit=hit+points+hit+points+#p771466

http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...dernMutants_amp;_Masterminds_merge&post_num=8

The Phoenix Project RPG
[/sblock]

 

[Walking Dad]

After some thought, I think this class will be in line with the d20 modern base classes

Powered Hero

                  [FONT=Courier New]Ref  Will Fort 
Level BaB  Save Save Save  Special 
  1   +0    +0   +0   +0   +5 [I]Character[/I] Points 
  2   +0    +0   +0   +0   +4 [I]Character[/I] Points 
  3   +0    +0   +0   +0   +5 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New][I]Character[/I] Points[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]  ...[/FONT]

HD 6, Skill 0+int / level
class skills: none
defense as Strong Hero


Let's compare a d20Modern class to a D&D class.

Starting feats vs Occupation feats + simple weapons = balanced


Fighter vs Strong Hero
HP: d10 vs d8 = Fighter wins
saves: 7/3/3 vs 5/3/3 = Fighter wins
Skills: int+2 vs int+2 = equal
Special: 6 feats vs 10 feats/talents = Strong wins

Seems like an advantage for D&D.

Crocodile, Huge vs Crocodile, Giant:

Both are nearly identical (including CR).

The D&D one has feats and a swim skill listed.

Conclusion: The possible access to modern equipment is considered enough advantage that d20 modern and D&D characters are expected to fight the same creatures.

 

[Walking Dad]

List of powers (core book) that have to be changed if you use HP instead of a damage save:

Absorption (includes parts of Healing and Protection)
Blast (and 'control' powers that have Blast as default)
Corrosion
Disintegration
Force Field
Healing
Mental Blast
Protection
Regeneration
Spinning
Strike


Possible Problems:
Enhanced Ability (and powers that change ability scores)
Super-Strength
Trip

 

[ValhallaGH]

Absorption is just a variation on Impervious Protection linked to a reaction Boost or Healing effect. Which should tell you how to change the game mechanics (limited damage resistance, limited reaction power).

Corrosion / Disintegration are Drain Toughness linked to Damage. So, have them lower the Damage Resistance than then deal damage.

Regeneration is just low-grade healing. Change it to healing Ranks hp per round. Done.

Spinning is a weird composite power. I'd ignore it completely.

Strike should deal 1d6 damage per rank, just like Blast (+ Strength if Mighty).

The Conversion rules already tell you how to run Protection / Force Field (Damage Resistance [all] of 2 * Protection rank).

How is Trip an issue?

Mental Blast is a perception range damage effect, resisted by Will. So the Damage Resistance is based upon your Will save bonus (2*Will instead of 2*Protection), and it deals [rank]d6 damage. Mind Shield would be just like having Impervious Protection for your brain.


Best of luck.

 

[Walking Dad]

Absorption is just a variation on Impervious Protection linked to a reaction Boost or Healing effect. Which should tell you how to change the game mechanics (limited damage resistance, limited reaction power).

Yes, I know it is a kind of composite power. I will address my problems with the individual components below.

Healing: 1d6 / rank. Fine, if you also keep the suggested damage / power rank.
Protection: see below

Corrosion / Disintegration are Drain Toughness linked to Damage. So, have them lower the Damage Resistance than then deal damage.

I would suggest to lower it as much per rank as standard Protection provides. Thoughts?

Regeneration is just low-grade healing. Change it to healing Ranks hp per round. Done.

I think this is a bit low. Perhaps 2/rank?

Spinning is a weird composite power. I'd ignore it completely.

Protection needs to be covered anyway. What remains is a resistance to some combat maneuvers.

Strike should deal 1d6 damage per rank, just like Blast (+ Strength if Mighty).

Not sure I like the damage model. 1d6 is 3.5 on average. +1 ability mod is just +1.

The Conversion rules already tell you how to run Protection / Force Field (Damage Resistance [all] of 2 * Protection rank).

Protection: Damage Reduction doesn't affect energy damage in most d20 systems. It should be Damage Reduction (all) & Energy Resistance (all). Not sure 2 / rank is right if you keep the roughly 1d6 damage / rank for attack powers. Maybe 3. Impervious costs as much as base Protection. Why is it weaker?

I explained my problem with the damage above. Protection has to be re-adjusted.

How is Trip an issue?

It is not. I thought of something else. Sorry.

Mental Blast is a perception range damage effect, resisted by Will. So the Damage Resistance is based upon your Will save bonus (2*Will instead of 2*Protection), and it deals [rank]d6 damage. Mind Shield would be just like having Impervious Protection for your brain.

I thought about some auto hit with a will save for half damage, but this looks interesting.

Best of luck.

Thanks

 

[ValhallaGH]

Interesting stuff.
A few more pieces of input.

I would suggest to lower it as much per rank as standard Protection provides. Thoughts?

That's probably the way to go. Lower Damage Resistance by 2 / rank, then deal 1d6 per rank. Nice and simple.

Regeneration:
It doesn't do much in-combat healing (in 2e, which is what you're using) until you get to ridiculous ranks (~30 to heal damage each round). 1 hp per round maintains this, and makes it easy to scale the effect to whatever degree you want. And the guy with Regeneration 30 is just as freaking hard to put down as he was before.

Not sure I like the damage model. 1d6 is 3.5 on average. +1 ability mod is just +1.

The trick is balance when you stop having static damage for everything. Blast does (rank -2)d6, or 3.5 per rank after the first 2 (and rank 1 or 2 blasts should just do 1 and 1d4 damage, respectively; subsumed by the higher damage of higher rank blasts).
How should strike work? Flat damage, just like strength? That's going to be pretty lame. Rank -2 d6, just like blast? But most weapons (and weapon-like powers) are low-rank strikes; so they lose their damage dice entirely, and are still melee only?
It's a tricky question with no perfect solutions.
Also, most d20 systems assume that any attack effect is vastly superior to raw strength.

Protection: Damage Reduction doesn't affect energy damage in most d20 systems.

Which confuses the heck out of people that aren't used to d20. "But it's damage! Why doesn't my damage reduction stop the pain of acid!?" I understand the decision (it makes casters feel cooler and keeps barbarians from completely ignoring fire) but it's danged confusing, especially with Hardness in existence.
I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that the language isn't spectacular.

Not sure 2 / rank is right if you keep the roughly 1d6 damage / rank for attack powers. Maybe 3. Impervious costs as much as base Protection. Why is it weaker?

At 3 per, protection is too good. Tactical Vest is Protection 4; SMG deals 2d6 damage. A shot can either have a chance to hurt someone (2 to 12 vs. DR 8) or be useless (2 to 12 vs. DR 12). I say that having a chance to cause injury is more appropriate.

Impervious is a +1 per rank extra, added to the Toughness save. When added to a protection, it increases the DR by 1 (3 / rank); when added to a Con bonus, it should provide DR 2, just like protection, since the con score is providing increased survivability already (in the form of hp). That was a trade off players had to make when dealing with PL caps.
For a non-capped game, Impervious by itself is less useful. It may even be fine to drop it entirely.

I thought about some auto hit with a will save for half damage, but this looks interesting.

That could work too, and be closer to standard for d20 games.