Gangs, Thugs, Social Pariahs, and Charisma

[Felix]

I ran into this quote over on the rules forum in this thread and thought it could be its own discussion. Here's the quote:

My main point is that gangs of thugs are typically made up of social outcasts (i.e. people with low charisma).

TBL had recommended that a player "take advantage of his low charisma"; he ought infiltrate a thuggery organization by spitting, being scarred and smelling badly. I disagree with this line of thought, since I believe that Charisma is the ability to present yourself in a manner that others will find appealing; this is true regardless of who those others are. So if you present yourself to a king, he'll be impressed with your charm and courtly manners. If you present yourself to the local boss, he'll be impressed with your deadly offhand manner and willingness to hurt others.

The act of infiltration requires one to hide your true motives and cover them with what the target organization wants to see. So you could use a high charisma to seem a droolslobbering leg-breaker. But perhaps if you are a droolslobbering leg-breaker, they'll have a better chance at detecting something amiss.

But he does have a point: thugs are not known for their mental prowess, and I imagine that can extend to all of Int, Wis, and Cha. But what about the other way around? What kind of relationship does being a social outcast have with Charisma, high or low?

His statement implies that folks with high-charismas won't ever be social outcasts; is this true? Does a socially outcast thug become socially accepted when his Charisma improves? When you think of thugs, charisma, and society's relationship to them, what do you think of?

 

[JDJblatherings]

many a thug had a great deal of charisma. Being a social pariah does not mean one has no charisma. It is possible to be a member of an unlean class, caste, ethnicity or trade and have a remarkable personal charisma but the startififed society that defines one as pariah generally isn't going to budge for that person.

Thugs such Al Capone were found to be Charismatic as were many another gangster even if they were criminals and suspected murderers.

Being an outcast is not a goverend soley by ones Charisma but by society.

 

[Crothian]

A social out cast and charisma are not related. However, I can see a social outcast getting circumstance penalties to diplomacy and some other charisma based skills and rolls.

 

[Tonguez]

Gangs are social hierarchies just like any other. The high charisma members live well and if they are also highly intelligent/wise often rise to positions of leadership, average charisma members make up the bulk of the gang gowever I'd suspect that the very low charisma characters does not become a member of a gang at all instead a true social pariah is an outcast loner who might form a small mob whom even the established gangs do not trust.
These social pariahs might appear in in the unwashed mass of a formless mob but not in the more structured system of the gang

SO nope The Blow Leprechaun is wrong (afterall Intimidation needs Charisma)

 

[Celebrim]

Low social status and low charisma are in no way equivalent.

A truly good set of social skill rules would make that clear, but alas - like so many areas which don't directly touch combat - we don't have those (yet).

A person with high charisma is equally good at working his way through the ranks of the upper class or the lower class. Where he may run into trouble is if there is strong class resentment in the culture and he is unable to convincingly pass himself off as a member of the social class he is attempting to ingraciate himself with. Passing yourself off as a member of a different social class requires a disguise or bluff check, and possibly a Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Nobility) check if you've never mingled with this class of people before. Failing to successfully pass yourself off as a member of the social class will carry a circumstance penalty on Diplomacy checks of between -1 and -10 depending on the distance from thier own social class they percieve you to be and how strongly this class gap is felt. For example, if you are percieved to be a slave, you have a -10 penalty on attempts to persuade the King, and conversely if you are a member of a hated aristocracy you have a -10 penalty on diplomacy checks amongst the oppressed under class (whether this oppression is real or imagined). Everything else is in between, but adjustments in the -3 to +3 range should be reutine if you are going for a stratified society based on the middle ages.

On the other hand, widely different social status can give a character big bonus on Intimidate (and sometimes Bluff) checks depending on whether or not the person you are speaking to percieves you or themselves as being out of thier element. And if you have a higher percieved social status and the person you are speaking to respects you, that can give you a big bonus on Diplomacy checks as well.

 

[gizmo33]

His statement implies that folks with high-charismas won't ever be social outcasts; is this true?

In my opinion - no. "Charisma" the way it's handled in DnD is treated as a universal - so I can see how the reasoning leads to social outcasts having low charisma. However, in the real world I think that your influence is based on your ability to manipulate groups of people based on social cues as established by the culture.

In other words, someone who understands orc culture might know the right time to shake his weapons in the air and yell "hail to Gruumsh" and have all the orc warriors ready to follow him to the Hells. That same character would probably fair poorly in a monastery trying to recruit the monks to his side.

I would simulate those issues with heavy circumstantial penalties to diplomacy checks. Thus, in my campaign, both outcasts and noblemen have the potential for high charisma scores.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "thugs."

If you mean a group of bruisers who hang out at the local alehouse, bust heads every night (and twice on Fridays) for the heck of it, and sometimes get a few coin from a representative of organized crime to go break some legs, sure, that group would probably have below average Charisma. They would also have Intimidate as a trained skill, mind, and some would have Skill Focus in it, but their stat mod? Probably a -1 or -2.

If you mean members of a formal gang, you'll probably see a wider variance: the gang leader will probably have a Charisma bonus (+1 or +2), some of his followers will be below average, and others will be average. They'll be social pariahs in 'polite society,' but both feared and grudgingly admired in their territory.

If you mean a criminal organization, you're more likely to see high Charisma than low, especially above the lowest ranks. A good guildmaster of a Sword and Sorcery-style thieves' guild (which are usually more like the Mafia than anything else) should be able to mingle with high society - the better to rob them, or bribe them to ignore other criminality! A crime lord is likely to have a high Charisma - +3, +4 or even +5 (with level bonuses). He may or may not be a social pariah.

A con man is likely to be a social pariah (among those who know what he is) but have a high Charisma: +2 or +3. In fact, one of the main things he does is Disguise the things that would make him a social pariah, then Bluff people into giving him their gil before they realize their mistake.

 

[Mallus]

I am shocked that a coked-up leprechaun has never heard of gangsta rap.

Shocked, I tell you.

 

[Wolfwood2]

It's important not to overestimate the importance of a single raw stat, though.

If some guy has a charisma of 6 but still gets the job done then he's in. If some guy has a charisma of 20 but can't get the job done, he's out. Being awesome and useful at what you do is an influence all its own.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Charisma is a matter of force of personality. High Charisma doesn't mean you are more socially adapted, or cleaner or so very, very pretty. It means that you can use your personality to get people to do what you want or to think as you want them to. You can stand out in a crowd.

When the high charisma BBEG walks into the royal ballroom during the festival, the room quiets down and eyes turn to watch him approach the king. The BBEg might be a brilliant mage with strong features, or he might be a shuffling madman, but he commands the presence of the room.

When a low charisma BBEG walks into the ballroom, nobody even notices. He stands up on a table and shouts that he is going to kill them all when the moon sets and the only noticeable effect is that a few people mutter something about a drunk crackpot and a couple of guards walk over to escort him out. Once the BBEG kills the guards, he gains the attention of the crowd, but as a result of his actions rather than his personality.