Gaps In The Monster Lineup

[Alzrius]

The problem is that I need undead in the CR 13 to CR 16 range in order to have sufficient numbers of monsters who can hit them. And amazingly, there are slim pickings in that CR range in MM, MM2 and FF (unless I missed something). There are TONS of undead at low CRs. There are several at CR 17. Sure, I can load up on minotaur zombies (CR 4) but... they only hit the party on a Nat 20. I think my only real option here is going to be to create a monster to fit the niche. That way I can tweak it for perfect balance after playtesting.

I could be wrong, but I think the design philosophy was that you can make lower-power creatures stronger, but can't weaken high-powered ones.

The problem here doesn't sound so much that you're working just in the MM (since you need to stick to the Core Rulebooks), but that you're also watching out for wordcount. If you could fiddle with templates and advancement (whether by hit dice or class levels), then you'd be okay, but you'd have to list the entire stat block.

That said, I glance through the SRD and still see some options you can use as-is. For example, if you look under Nightshade (it's easy to forget that nightshades are Undead creatures), you'll find the Nightwing is CR 14, and the Nightwalker is CR 16. Likewise, the mummy lord (a mummy with 10 levels of cleric), is also in the SRD now, making a complete stat-block unnecessary. It's a CR 15 monster. So, you still have options.

Likewise, if you want to extend it to the MM2 and FF, the Gravecrawler and Jahi from the MM2 are both CR 16 Undead, and the Blood Fiend (under the Demon entry) and the Hullathoin from the FF are, respectively, CR 14 and CR 15 Undead monsters.

 

[Knight Otu]

OK, CR 13 to 16 is somewhat underdeveloped...

At CR 13, there's the Death Tyrant from the FRCS - as an undead beholder, there's little chance to get permission for it.
At CR 14, there's the Bloodfiend (undead demon) from the Fiend Folio, and the Nightwing from the Monster Manual.
At CR 15, there's the Hullathoin, from the Fiend Folio.
At CR 16, there's the Gravecrawler and the Jahi from the MM2, and the Nightwalker from the MM.
If you can squeeze in CR 12s, there is the Colossal Wraith Spider from the City of the Spider Queen adventure. But I see little chance for permission. There's also a bone worm in one of the Far Corners of the World web articles.
If you can squeeze in CR 17s, there's the Banshee, Deathbringer and Effigy, all from MM2.

If there's no chance to use other books, creating a new monster really seems to be your best option...

 

[Buzzardo]

OK, CR 13 to 16 is somewhat underdeveloped...

At CR 13, there's the Death Tyrant from the FRCS - as an undead beholder, there's little chance to get permission for it.
At CR 14, there's the Bloodfiend (undead demon) from the Fiend Folio, and the Nightwing from the Monster Manual.
At CR 15, there's the Hullathoin, from the Fiend Folio.
At CR 16, there's the Gravecrawler and the Jahi from the MM2, and the Nightwalker from the MM.
If you can squeeze in CR 12s, there is the Colossal Wraith Spider from the City of the Spider Queen adventure. But I see little chance for permission. There's also a bone worm in one of the Far Corners of the World web articles.
If you can squeeze in CR 17s, there's the Banshee, Deathbringer and Effigy, all from MM2.

If there's no chance to use other books, creating a new monster really seems to be your best option...

Thanks for your feedback on this. It seems to tighten down the remaining options. One other challenge I have that further limits the issue is size of the creatures. Nightwalkers and Nightwings are huge for example, and just won't fit in the dungeon room (which is specific in size due to the trap). I can go as big as large without a problem.

I am gonna try to put something together with gravecrawlers, and blood fiends. Maybe round it out with Devourers and Ragewinds. If that fails a playtest... well, its a bump in wordcount...

Thanks dudes.

Parker

 

[Buzzardo]

Okay. 4 Ragewinds, 14 Blood Fiends, and 86 Mummies! EL 24. I can drop Ragewinds if it's too much, and Add Sword Wraiths if it's not enough.

Tough!

Now for hours of playtesting...

 

[Alzrius]

Okay. 4 Ragewinds, 14 Blood Fiends, and 86 Mummies! EL 24.

Wow, movement isn't going to play much of a factor in that encounter huh? The sheer size of a room needed to make it so everyone can move around everyone else is daunting...hope those Tumble modifiers are high (DC 25 to move at half-speed through a space occupied, with no attacks of opportunity...with each occupied space after the first adding a +2 to that DC).

 

[der_kluge]

The thought of running 86 mummies in an encounter is enough to make my head explode.

BTW, I wish someone would explain to me why there is this general disdain among d20 publishers to not use other publishers' OGC content?

Can someone explain that to me? My god, there must be hundreds of open content undead out there, that could easily be used. Just post the content on the website if you're worried about page size.

 

[Buzzardo]

The thought of running 86 mummies in an encounter is enough to make my head explode.

BTW, I wish someone would explain to me why there is this general disdain among d20 publishers to not use other publishers' OGC content?

Can someone explain that to me? My god, there must be hundreds of open content undead out there, that could easily be used. Just post the content on the website if you're worried about page size.

Hmm. too much on 86 mummies. Okay. I could cut down the number by half or more, and use sword wraiths instead. My thought on the mummies is a few flame strikes/fireballs/turning from 18th level PCs mops them up pretty fast. I also need many of them to block exits for at least a few rounds. They start from the edges of the cavern and don't enter melee for 2 or 3 rounds. The real battle is with the blood fiends and ragewinds. I expect however that the Sword Wraiths, will not be so easy to mop up.

Any other thoughts on this? This is actually pretty helpful stuff, for which I appreciate all feedback.

RE: OGC from other publishers. You are right. There is a metric ton or more of it, but the problem, is when writing a 3rd party published module, you have to make some assumptions about what the majority of those who purchase your product have access to. Even going to the FF and MM2 is a stretch, because some DMs (a minority I hope) might not have them. (WoTC insists that they not be stat blocked fully, but refered to the actual book, which makes perfect sense for them from a marketing standpoint). If you assume that most of your DM's wouldn't have a Tome of Horrors, Creature Collection 2, etc... then you have to do a full stat block + notes on special abilities and attacks. That of course defeats the point of saving space printed space. If I were going to spend that much space, I would just make a new monster, which I suspect most module buyers like to see, because it represents an encounter that even the most veteran of players have never met. Everybody loves a brand new monster.

 

[Alzrius]

Any other thoughts on this? This is actually pretty helpful stuff, for which I appreciate all feedback.

What if the PCs have already spent their high-level spells? Or if they don't have the appropriate area-affecting spells. Presumably turning should destroy a lot of these creatures, but even that wouldn't be foolproof.

The reason I ask is that even a few cohorts can make a severe difference in a battle. If a few mummies get around one of the stronger monsters and use the Aid Another action altogether, they can seriously boost it's to-hit and AC.

Swordwraiths as cohort monsters could be even worse. Those things deal 1 point of temporary Strength damage with every successful melee attack, no saving throw. Unless the PC's AC is 30 or above (which would stop 95% of the swordwraiths' attacks, since they hit at +10), they're going to be seriously hurting for Strength when they face the "boss" monsters.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Here's a question:

what in the heck are 4 ragewinds, 14 blood fiends, and 86 mummies doing working together? What - What on earth links this encounter together? This just doesn't feel right - it feels WAY to thrown together. I can't imagine why these creatures would interact like this...

 

[Buzzardo]

What if the PCs have already spent their high-level spells? Or if they don't have the appropriate area-affecting spells. Presumably turning should destroy a lot of these creatures, but even that wouldn't be foolproof.

The reason I ask is that even a few cohorts can make a severe difference in a battle. If a few mummies get around one of the stronger monsters and use the Aid Another action altogether, they can seriously boost it's to-hit and AC.

Swordwraiths as cohort monsters could be even worse. Those things deal 1 point of temporary Strength damage with every successful melee attack, no saving throw. Unless the PC's AC is 30 or above (which would stop 95% of the swordwraiths' attacks, since they hit at +10), they're going to be seriously hurting for Strength when they face the "boss" monsters.

Well this is basically what I am up against. This is a pivotal encounter in the campaign, and one that has given me more trouble that any other I have ever written prepared since I started playing in 1980. This is intended to be an encounter with an almost guaranted TPK, but the party has an intelligent artifact called a Penumbral Scepter that gives various undead controlling functions. This gives the party the advantage unbeknownst to the setter of the trap. It is a question of balance here that has given me fits. I suppose the only way to know is to begin playtesting.