Gender Issues

[der_kluge]

Ah, this old chestnut...

Fully half of all my characters are female. In fact, I once took a tally of characters I'd made over the course of a lifetime of playing Star Wars here and there, and I had something like 33% female, 33% male, and 33% droids!

I had a folder that contained every 2nd edition character I'd ever made (it was a substantial number) and the result was 50/50 male/female.

I honestly have no idea why that is.

I was in at least one group that "claimed" to be bothered by it - I had a character who was disguised as a young boy - running from her parents after she refused to participate in an arranged marriage. Eventually, it was revealed that I was a girl. A few of the players were quite surprised, and had absolutely no idea whatsoever. That group took a bit of a hiatus, and afterwards, they asked me not to come back, and the DM cited that as one of the issues, but I honestly think it had more to do with how much we butted heads over rules arguments. Plus they had a very closeknit group and the fact that they'd kicked out like 5-6 other people before me was certainly telling.

At any rate, in RL, it can cause some confusion, though I find it to be only of a minor nuisance with regards to pronoun confusion. It does tend to work much, much better over play-by-post.

Most of the people I've played with are completely cool with it. The group I'm playing with currently, one of the guys even told me that he would insist that I continue to play female characters, because it just seems to jive him - I've played two characters in the group - the first a "female" robot in an apocalyptic game, and now a female elven rogue.

Anyway, I'm rambling. The point is, to have fun. I also enjoy the role-playing challenge. So, for me, playing females is part of the fun.

To each their own.

 

[luciddarkchild]

Why discard the rare (among many groups as I understand it) opportunity to have true-to-life male-female interactions and reactions. It is sadly difficult in many gaming circles to have female players and then they play a guy while one of the males poorly portrays a woman. Bleh!

Ah, so the solution is that only bisexual and/or transgendered gamers are allowed to play cross-gender characters. Gotcha.

Also, not all of us use gaming to figure out how to flirt with Real Live People(tm), or even want to represent that part of life in an escapist game -- you know, that place where we go to avoid all the bs we deal with on a daily basis. Besides, if your players haven't picked up the social script we've all had hammered into our heads since we were three years old, I think you're going to have bigger problems with them.

they do nothing to make it seem like they are playing characters as "male". Their characters act in all ways similar to the female characters they've played.

Perhaps they should pick their noses, fart loudly, and catcall any female NPC while making offensive jokes to remind you? I'm really not sure how much more "masculine" you want these women to play their characters. Men in real life vary widely as to how well they fit North American norms of heterosexual masculinity, why would characters played by people who live in the real world differ?

 

[Wik]

Perhaps they should pick their noses, fart loudly, and catcall any female NPC while making offensive jokes to remind you? I'm really not sure how much more "masculine" you want these women to play their characters. Men in real life vary widely as to how well they fit North American norms of heterosexual masculinity, why would characters played by people who live in the real world differ?

You seem to be taking my point personally. Which is funny, cuz I've never met you.

First off, I think you're reading too much into what I've said. But allow me to explain myself. Since I seem to have stepped on your toes or something.

I am quite aware of gender differences and issues. I'm an anthropology major, and I've sat in feminine anthropology classes where there would be four men and forty women. Doesn't bother me. And we spent a large portion of time talking about gender differences (fun fact: in that same class, there were 6 students who took up much of the discussion time. Three of them were men. That shows some interesting linguistic/cultural differences between the genders)

We are all different, of course. I didn't think that needed to be said. But, and the anthropolgists will agree with me, gender is a huge thing. It defines a LOT about us, even things we would never think about consciously.

(as an example, it's been noticed that women are often better organized than men. Why? Because they typically have to pay attention to time more than men, just to be aware of their own biological cycles. And that trait carries on into other fields. Just an oversimplified observation that was made in a class a while back).

Now, taking that, think about gaming: I want to play a character. I want to play whatever personality trait it is that I find interesting. My characters are often jerks, because I find it rewarding to play characters who don't care what others think of them. Now, if you want to examine what life is like on the other side of the gender wall, go for it.

But, and several posts have mentioned something similar here, a lot of players go for the other side on a whim. Or because they think their characters will look better. Or because they want to play a hot lesbian or something.

In the examples I gave, I mentioned how players really played the same characters they had been playing before, but with a few different body parts this time around. And that, to me, is boring and lame.

There are gender types, and I really get annoyed in the group I'm in when one female player is playing her male shaman very much like her own (fairly feminine, if a bit "tomboyish") personality. And that, to me, just ruins the immersive factor of the world.

 

[Wik]

Another example: Genders speak differently. In our culture, those differences extend to all racial groups (in differing quantities), social classes, and sexual preferences. While individual rules are broken by an individual, they typically follow more rules than they break (a woman might speak like a man in some ways, but in the end, she still "speaks like a woman")

Men, for example, are more likely to interrupt their conversation partner. Especially if the partner is a woman. Men are more likely to make jokes, often in response to a comment (as a way of "winning power", to use a feminist Anthropologist's interpretation). Men will nod their heads in response to a conversation, or say "mm-hmm" only if they agree with what the speaker is saying; women tend to use those gesutres as "regulators", simply as a way of saying "I hear what you are saying". Women are more likely to touch while speaking; conversations with women are often more physical. Women are also more likely to smile. And they use more questions in "basic" conversations about their partner.

Again, these are generalities, but we adhere to most of them, most of the time. I've broken all the rules at some point or another, as have we all, but I follow most of those male rules (Except for the interruption part; I seldom interrupt women, I've found. That's how I personally break a single rule).

These rules, by the way, are hardwired into how we interact and respond to people. We assess people's language subconsciously, all the time. And the rules are pretty much observed from culture to culture (with a few variances, of course).

Now, transfer that to RP. If a male player is playing a female character, he probably won't even think to change how he speaks; speech is, really, subconscious at heart. And he won't follow those cultural rules that women follow that no one ever really consciously knows about. Really, while he might be playing a female character (and this character could even have obviously feminine goals and personality), he's really playing a man who looks like a woman.

I find it disconcerting in my group, at least. Maybe there are some master actors in your group. I dunno.

Beyond that, though, why even bother? I like the fact that, if we played everyone by their genders, our group would have a nice mix of genders. I'm upset now because, out of a group of six or seven (two female), our PCs are all male. How lame is that?

 

[lutecius]

I prefer to play male characters even though I've played a few females, but i find it funny that it could bother anyone.

I don't know if it's a cultural thing but even when I started playing in junior high-school (late 80's), it was a non issue. Most of the guys would play a female character from time to time (and there was that cursed belt in AD&D1 too) It didn't feel any weirder than picking a female character in a videogame.

Sure, some of those characters were stereotypes, and sometimes there were awkward moments when interacting with male pcs or npcs, and we would make all those earthy jokes, so what? It was fun and the female players laughed too. Do you take all your characters so seriously?

Most of the time, I find guys or girls playing another gender more interesting than those who always want to be the same badass character from whatever cool action movie or anime they're obsessed with.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm upset now because, out of a group of six or seven (two female), our PCs are all male. How lame is that?

Why don't you ask your female players how lame that is?

 

[pawsplay]

I am quite aware of gender differences and issues. I'm an anthropology major, and I've sat in feminine anthropology classes where there would be four men and forty women. Doesn't bother me. And we spent a large portion of time talking about gender differences (fun fact: in that same class, there were 6 students who took up much of the discussion time. Three of them were men. That shows some interesting linguistic/cultural differences between the genders)

All that says to me is that the three males and three females have a similar interest level. This is probably because only highly motivated men are likely to take a feminine anthropology class. Computer programming classes are typically predominantly male; I've noticed female students in those classes to be similarly overrepresented in class participation.

I think there's a construct problem with saying the three men are active because they are masculine. That implies the three most active women in a feminine anthropology class are unusually masculine.

We are all different, of course. I didn't think that needed to be said. But, and the anthropolgists will agree with me, gender is a huge thing. It defines a LOT about us, even things we would never think about consciously.

I think just about anyone could agree with that. I think where people disagree is how fluid and individual gender is to individuals.

(as an example, it's been noticed that women are often better organized than men. Why? Because they typically have to pay attention to time more than men, just to be aware of their own biological cycles. And that trait carries on into other fields. Just an oversimplified observation that was made in a class a while back).

I don't find that to be a scientific observation. In my studies in psychology, women often have more organizational habits than men, but are not notably better than men at working under stress and distraction, except for some very specific tasks (women tend to do better than men talking on the phone while typing, although nobody does all that well; similarly, following multiple conversations at once). I would be very suspect of claiming women are "more organized." What does that even men? I suspect it's just a shorthand for "I define as organized traits I choose to ascribe to women."

But, and several posts have mentioned something similar here, a lot of players go for the other side on a whim. Or because they think their characters will look better. Or because they want to play a hot lesbian or something.

What's wrong with that? Is it weirder than wanting to be a cyborg, or a dying junkie, or a sapient plant, or a defrocked priest?

In the examples I gave, I mentioned how players really played the same characters they had been playing before, but with a few different body parts this time around. And that, to me, is boring and lame.

Is that less excting than the same characters with the same body parts?

There are gender types, and I really get annoyed in the group I'm in when one female player is playing her male shaman very much like her own (fairly feminine, if a bit "tomboyish") personality. And that, to me, just ruins the immersive factor of the world.

Well, you know, in many cultures, people who cross gender lines are often channeled into careers such as the shaman who perform a spiritual role and move "between roles." So maybe she's roleplaying like a master.

But really, it's silly. She's pretending to be a fictional character. Not a real person. As long as she is that person, her roleplaying is fine. It's not like you can accuse someone of being "not a realistic elf."

People watch movies all the time, and in any given movie, all the characters of one gender are written by a person of the opposite gender. If someone can write a decent screenplay with good characters of both genders, and an actor can then portray them, I don't see a problem. Sure, some films have characters that are little more than genderized objects, but most good films have appealing, interesting characters of both genders.

So really this just sounds like you complaining you don't game with Lawrence Olivier, Nicole Kidman, Dustin Hoffman, and Anthony Hopkins. Ok, so your player is a terrible at roleplaying her character. Sez you.

 

[S'mon]

a) Homosexuality is a choice (of convenience!)

It's a continuum. And partly a social construct.

Edit: I've known too many people who were 'gay' when they were in a homosexual relationship, then 'straight' when they were in a heterosexual relationship, to believe in a simple inherent straight/gay bifurcation. Some people are straight, some gay, some can go either way depending on circumstance. In modern Anglo-American culture there is strong social pressure not to identify as bisexual, so it's not uncommon to alternately identify as straight or gay depending on circumstance.

 

[S'mon]

b) That there is a "typical" lesbian in terms of interests and physicality.

There was a story in the news a couple of days ago about research on brain shape - gay men and straight women have a similar brain shape, while straight men and lesbian women have a similar brain shape.

Anyway my point was not 'all lesbians are like men', (I suspect that self-identified lesbians and gay men are bimodal anyway, some more typically masculine, others more typically feminine); but merely that there is a higher proportion of lesbians among women in the military than among women in general. It's not implausible that a female warrior in a D&D type quasi-medieval setting would be lesbian; however it's unlikely that she would be a promiscuous nymphette of the sort played by some male gamers.

Edit: When I play a female warrior I'm not playing a male fantasy sex object, nor for that matter am a playing a stereotypically butch lesbian character. I tend to play them similar to the military women I've known. I find that for practical reasons the character will tend to avoid sex and romantic entanglements; certainly this was true in the Midnight game I played.

 

[S'mon]

Or they could be modeled after Boudicca or Buffy or Sarah Connor or...

Yup. "Not implausible" =/= "mandatory".