D&D 5E general balancing tips for a 5e homebrew with mostly newish players

[Michael Goguen]

Hey folks, this has been stewing in my mind a bit and someone suggested posting it here to get people's thoughts on game balancing and so on. There's going to be a bit of fairly simple math in this post, please bare with me.

1. -allies and enemies will hit well armoured opponents about 50% of the time
-in a day, pc's can get back average 50% of their hp in 5e dnd from recovery dice
-if everyone can take an attack on everyone essentially every round, the average is about 3hp dmg per creature to the opposing side with a normal weapon and no special powers (taking into account the 50% chance of hitting)
-assuming an avg 8hp /lvl /char , and if there are 10pcs at 4th level each, we get about 480hp for the total party, or 720hp /party /day without extra healing. so against a similar enemy of similar number, with half the hp, they will take the party down to about 1/3 hp per day.

this assumes the damage is spread around about equally as well both sides are doing about 30hp to each other per round, it takes about 8 rounds to defeat the lesser group (of enemies). if it takes 1 min per char action, and their are 10char per side, and 8 rounds, that's 20x8 min for the battle, 160min, or about 3 hours.

So I was thinking a suggestion might be have a fewer number of opponents who are slightly tougher than the average party member, and could have the leader escape via -fog, darkness, invisibililty, fly away, teleport, fortress/secret passages before the battle is actually through, too... This should take less real game time to play as well because there are less opponents to run... and when there are lots of enemies, tending to make them generally pretty weak... like minions in 4th ed almost (so you don't have to track hp, either) another thing is, if you lower the number of enemies but keep the same hp total, you reduce the amount of pc damage by the ratio of reduction of numbers or opponents, and battle time by half that ratio (since they are only half the pieces on the board if you start with an equal number)

i know make things math is annoying for some people, but my group keeps getting tpk'd in 5e dnd, and I think maybe it is because we are facing superior odds that haven't been balanced for our numbers (relatively inexperienced dm, but with some experience in 5e... since its been out basically and in the game testing). So i'm kind of wondering what might be the numbers people would want to shoot for that are fun? factors that will affect the game play, number of pc's/players, how long the average battle is, how many battles per session, what kind of amount of extraneous healing might there be, and how would the pc's get access to it (should they just long rest, or stock up on potions or wands or...?) I remember a dm was telling me 4e had some useful descriptions about some encounter types, like I can't remember what they were called, but like big boss, thugs, elites, minions, like set up in a way so you could see how that configuration would affect the story and game play, like time, difficulty, etc. like one was where one baddy was the whole encounter. Also, using 4e terminology again, rp 'challenges' that come up, spreading puzzles and rp stuff in, how much of that, how to space it out, etc.

Our games are usually about 4 or 5 hours, from about 3pm to 7pm at a gaming store on the edge of town a bit of a ways for most people to bus to. k thx folks. Hopefully this will help other players and dm's too, as kind of a template... maybe most dm's already have this kind of stuff kind of in their head, but I'm just wanting to see what concrete suggestions I might give... or at least calculate the challenge difficulty of battles better so our party knows if we're outgunned, so we can retreat or make better strategy or whatever... the group used to be 10 plus players, now its down to 4-5 pc's, the players are thinking of doubling up on characters to improve numbers survivability, etc. I know in 5e and neverwinter nights computer game, magic summons or animal companions were often really useable as tanks to absorb some of the damage that didn't really take from the total party pool (well animal companions would I guess). ok thx.

 

[kalil]

I just.. I dont... Erm. Well.

 

[mellored]

Hit dice give you ~80% of your hit points, depending on your Con mod.
You also gain all your HP back, and half your hit dice per long rest.

8 for a combat is very high to defeat a group of enemies. The game is balanced around 2-4 rounds of combat, two battles per short rest, with 2 short rests a day, or about 20 rounds of combat a day.

I would double check the monster rules, make sure your following the XP guidelines.

 

[Jester David]

There are lots of handy tips to increase survivability. Frequent short rests help, as do more potions of healing. Hiring some NPCs guards can work as well. Focusing fire on enemies is a big one, rather than spreading out the damage.
Generally playing smart, and thinking of creative tactics or alternative to battle.

If this is a homegame, and survival is an issue, starting at level 3 can help get past the more dangerous low levels.

 

[happyhermit]

this assumes the damage is spread around about equally as well both sides are doing about 30hp to each other per round, it takes about 8 rounds to defeat the lesser group (of enemies). if it takes 1 min per char action, and their are 10char per side, and 8 rounds, that's 20x8 min for the battle, 160min, or about 3 hours.

Gaah! 5e IME is really not suited for that length of combat on a regular basis. I would only ever include a potentially 3hr combat if I really wanted to drive home the relentlessness of a battle. You must have some pretty cool players if they are engaged that whole time.

... the group used to be 10 plus players, now its down to 4-5 pc's,

YES!

the players are thinking of doubling up on characters to improve numbers survivability, etc.

NOOO!

I know in 5e and neverwinter nights computer game, magic summons or animal companions were often really useable as tanks to absorb some of the damage that didn't really take from the total party pool (well animal companions would I guess).

Yes, but there is also a computer to take care of all that overhead. I think you had the right idea earlier, less opponents makes the combat go quicker, with less overhead. If you really want constant drawn out battles, that's fine, but 5e isn't really suited for that. I don't think my comment has been all that helpful, but much of that is because I look at things very differently. My preferred playstyle doesn't have all the combats balanced for the party, the party can get into the most minor of combats that is over in a round, or they can potentially get themselves into a fight that they really can't win with traditional D&D combat.

Have you tried the CR ratings and rules that WOTC provides and found them simply not-workable? Because I think the math you are using is not going to give you the kind of results you are looking for for many reasons of the top of my head (status effects, resistances, immunities, etc).

ETA; maybe you could give your basic party composition and level, and people could give some example encounters. I am not the best at this but there seems to be many experienced GMs here.

 

[cmad1977]

What??


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[steeldragons]

"General balancing tips...?"

Don't.

If your players are having trouble keeping their PCs alive, that's the players' problem. You are not responsible for keeping the PCs alive or insuring they always succeed. That is the very antithesis of Dungeons & Dragons.

YOU are there to create a living/breathing fantasy world, that [preferably] has a degree of internal consistency and believability to engage the players [often referred to as "immersion"] that present challenges -of any/all power levels!- to the PCs.

It is up to THEM to figure out how to defeat/overcome/avoid/shmooze their way through/do whatever they want about those challenges...and, generally speaking, keep themselves alive while doing so (and, hopefully, collect some riches, fame, and glory along the way .

So, how to make things balance? Don't bother trying. Make the world make sense and it will be balanced in itself. That's all you, the DM, needs to worry about.

That is my advice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

general balancing tips for a 5e homebrew with mostly newish players

My tip would be "just don't" newish players aren't going to notice 'balance,' they're going to notice how much stuff they get to do, whether it works, and how much fun it is, and whether someone else is doing a lot more stuff that works more often and is more fun.

All that you can manage on the fly in 5e.

1. So I was thinking a suggestion might be have a fewer number of opponents who are slightly tougher than the average party member, ... This should take less real game time to play as well because there are less opponents to run...

That's what the guidelines lean towards. Remember there's a multiplier applied to the difficulty of an encounter if there's more than a single monster.

and when there are lots of enemies, tending to make them generally pretty weak... like minions in 4th ed almost

Sorta. They'll also be wiped out wholesale by an 1/2 damage AE that's beefy enough, something minions could survive when 'missed.'

another thing is, if you lower the number of enemies but keep the same hp total, you reduce the amount of pc damage by the ratio of reduction of numbers or opponents

And you reduce the effectiveness of AE relative to single-target PC attacks, too. Which, if the blasty types are outperforming, is good.

my group keeps getting tpk'd in 5e dnd,

They'll grow out of it. 1st level parties are easy to TPK, even if trying to avoid it. 2nd level are a lot less so. 3rd level and higher you'd have to actually try to make an encounter deadly to kill anyone.

I think maybe it is because we are facing superior odds that haven't been balanced for our numbers (relatively inexperienced dm, but with some experience in 5e... since its been out basically and in the game testing).

Easy mistake to make is missing that afore-mentioned modifier for number of enemies. Thanks to bounded accuracy, it's critical to take into account the danger of being outnumbered. The first 5e adventure, HotDQ, fell into that trap with it's 1st-level combats.

I remember a dm was telling me 4e had some useful descriptions about some encounter types, like I can't remember what they were called, but like big boss, thugs, elites, minions, like set up in a way so you could see how that configuration would affect the story and game play, like time, difficulty, etc. like one was where one baddy was the whole encounter. Also, using 4e terminology again, rp 'challenges' that come up, spreading puzzles and rp stuff in, how much of that, how to space it out, etc.

Well, he might not have been lying to you, but you're running 5e. Very little of that applies.

 

[Ancalagon]

I don't understand your math at all. Even including misses, the average damage / rounds should be more than 3 hp per round...

Also, 4-5 players is much more manageable than 10. Of course, they will face smaller groups of enemies.

 

[Ancalagon]

A quick question - are you a player or the DM in this group?