General Discussion Thread IX

[SlagMortar]

Rule #1. You don't talk about duel club.
Rule #2. You don't talk about duel club.

I'll admit it, while typing that very thought crossed my mind.

 

[Knight Otu]

Ugh. Construction works around the house means my LAN access may be spotty for a while. Got a point that allows access currently, but I can't count on it to remain.

 

[orsal]

duelling

I dug up some discussion of duelling protocol at the time of the infamous Handshake Affair.

From this thread, posts 294-5:

I can't recall if this (Player versus player conflict within city limits) has happened before now, but I don't think so. Obviously there are legal problems with brawling in the streets, but many a midieval culture- especially fantasy ones- has some sort of dueling procedure. I'd reccomend that Orussus be one of those cities, if only so there's some legal framework for inter-character fights that doesn't involve the watch throwing both parties in the lockup.

I've got an idea in my head for a pair of orginizations that would be in charge of duelling. One would be the longstanding aristocratic duelling society filled with tradition, honor, and forms. You need some form of credentials to get them to run a duel for you, and you have to jump through the hoops. The other would be more recent and more proleterian, it's legality secured through dubious means (i.e, thieves' guild linked), and involve a higher chance of dirty tricks, fixed games, and lots of profit for the orginization itself through gambling and selling tickets to big events.

I'll write this up as a formal proposal soon, to be yay or nayed, but I thought I'd bring up the general idea of single player character versus single player character within the confines of the city and see what the thoughts were. Should Orussus ban it all? Ban it within the city, forcing those who would duel to ride outside it's borders? Allow it with tight rules? Loose rules? Brawling in the streets?

So long as the combatants are discreet about their dueling, the authorities will turn a blind eye to the practice, especially if a gratuity is involved.

What that means is duels should take place somewhere that is out of sight and in a manner that does not endanger others or result in the destruction of property. Thieves' Guild brawls might take place in a back alley at midnight, or in a secret cellar, or in an abandoned warehouse. Fencing Association duels might take place on a sward outside of the city, or down shore on the beach, or in the Association's sparring room, or as a public tournament-style venue with spectators and betting.

Brawling in the streets, bar fights, and ride-by ensorcelings will likely get you in trouble with the town guard.

From this thread, posts #114,117:

"I head to the beach so that our duel may be conducted without the attraction of the law and others. You may bring a second if you wish," he pauses for a moment, "it suddenly occurs to me that someone of your limited mind may not know what that is. Someone to negotiate on your behalf. I await you little coward."

I have set up a link to fight this Cain in an open and fair fight on the beach, away from the city and its touchy, if undefined laws, and he attempted to back stab me in the threashold of the Inn of the Red dragon. I am moving this hear because he never made it to the beach.

Based on this, I would say: duelling is tolerated so long as the actual duel does not happen within the city walls.

 

[El Jefe]

Based on this, I would say: duelling is tolerated so long as the actual duel does not happen within the city walls.

I'd say more overlooked than tolerated, but the effect for PCs is the same.

We've already discussed how, like typical medieval cities, Orussus has a sphere of influence that diminishes the further you get away from it. Within the walls, pretty much what the Council says goes, and the Watch backs it up. Outside the walls, there are no regular patrols, but if someone reports something, the authorities are dispatched. Some distance away, contact with the authorities is infrequent, but if the situation is serious enough, Orussus will respond. Finally, at the fringes of the city's influence, pretty much anything goes, but if organized banditry gets to the point where it affects trade into the city, the city will assemble forces as needed (ususally hired PCs) to venture forth and deal with the threat. Beyond that, there is no law until one reaches the next settlement.

 

[DerHauptman]

Orsal - I read the "Handshake Affair" and found it flavorful and entertaining but disturbing in another way. See Comments in Spoiler.

[sblock=My comments on that thread]

I find it laughable that the City of Ossirus has the funds and assets available and poised to respond to a fight in the street between two unknown drifters in the largest city in the world in 30 seconds.

Think about it in terms of our own society. I mean think about it. In a modern city we have limited assets to fight crime. Some key assets are men, money, time and material to name a few. In case we get done chasing and finding all the murderers, rapists, drug dealing gangsters, thieves, thugs, mobs, con artists, and prostitutes. We’ll move on to our speeders, unethical business men with their imbalanced scales and such.

Then with all the money and time our city’s finest have left we’ll have a task force with surveillance, rapid response, high tech gadgetry and undercover informants work on all the fights between drunks in the parking lots of bars after they close. That’s the parallel I draw to all the messengers secret enforcers and teleporting guards in that thread. I know Ossirus is wealthy but damn that’s just wrong.

I find the reaction of the city watch to the events outside the RDI to be some of the most railroaded, controlling and manufactured meddling by a DM in the choices of players in 20+ years of gaming.

[/sblock]


In general,

I do understand the meta-game reasons for not wanting to have open season on PC-vs-PC duels – hurt feelings and all that! (You ready for the however?)

As silly as the outcome of that duel was, I think the past ideas on dueling in Ossirus that Orsal uncovered from PBartenter make a lot more sense than the current no not ever rules.

I think in a world where people live and die by their reputations and their skills at the sword, spell or quick why would there not be a culture of dueling? It might be a counter culture sure but a culture none the less.

I do understand the reason why a city would have a law against it for sure – for the same reason we have some laws we have today. Because they are there in case stuff gets out of hand there is something to charge people with.

I mean when two guys fight outside a bar at closing time (having been a bouncer I have some knowledge of this topic) “when” and the bigger question “IF” the police actually do ever come likely they will admonish them and send them home with a friend to sleep it off. Now if someone gets really hurt, they may take the other one to jail for a night or until he pays the bail of a whopping 40.00. It is likely that because the whole event, since it’s a bunch of he said she said – since the primary witnesses to the event are friends of one side or the other ant not all that worthy of impartiality. It will be plead to a drunk and disorderly or a disturbing the peace and the guy will go on his way.

However, if someone is killed or there is a major brawl or major property is destroyed then they can whip out the laws and use them to charge someone that’s why they are there.

Those are our modern standards, we are talking about a different kind of culture. More akin to a set of rules like the American West Circa 1870-1900. Laws were different, he drew first was a competent and qualified defense against killing someone in the street in cold blood. An insult could lead to the same and “he insulted him” was likewise just as viable defense to said infraction. That is if there was a trial at all. Usually, the lawman would just ask what happened and if enough people left alive (even the winning side) to corroborate the story everyone went on their way.

I'd say more overlooked than tolerated, but the effect for PCs is the same.

I disagree, the effect is not the same and if you insist that any instance of a duel is immediately known and quelled - then that is a locomotive in motion my Friend and a poor meta one at that. I'll buy that the city has a law against open dueling. That does not mean it can’t and does not happen with frequency.

If we insist that no matter what the guards will stop it then we are doing nothing more than firing the boiler on our Locomotive my friends. Heck a mêlée fight between two 1st level characters will likely last some 12 seconds or so. How fast can the gurads react? A percentage chance a patrol is in the ward sure but absolutes – not! How bout some rolls and a chance not a no not ever reaction? Heck any DM can whip out some “ghostly enforcers” to clamor out of “the shadows” of sufficient level to make my players do whatever I desire but is that letting them have their choice?


We (in the case of a PVP event) the judges, need to be careful to let the players choose their actions without railroading them with meta-knowledge super duper guards who know all and can quell all within a city of ten's of thousands in 30 seconds. Especially with the economy of LEW being such as is (I went from level 1 to level 2 with a 7.5 gp raise in wealth how rich can the city be?) The government tossing around teleports, magical messages and networks of secret informants/enforcers all there just to stop possible duelers seems well – choo, choo! A fanciful stretch on the games verisimilitude. (See my comments about the response in the "Handshake Affair".)

The following things can and should be allowed to happen if its overlooked:

I say that in a fantasy city, any city, even in modern times with all of our high tech gadgetry and police methods things happen every day that will never be known. A duel in the cellar of a Warehouse, when the watchman has been paid a months wages (3gp) to let it happen will never be known. Same with any event in the part of town controlled by the guilds of thieves or even I’d say the dock workers guild whose rough boys like to watch fights would protect the participants identities from the watch. This is my answer with 20 seconds of thought I am sure there are more devious minds than mine out there.

Therefore, I say that while it may be illegal, there would and should be a counter culture of dueling in the city – a rich and diverse one at that. One participated in by all levels of society and most likely a good many of the guard as well since they are likely hard men accustomed to a hard life.

So lets not make heavy handed choices for the players until we consider what they want. By that I mean not in general like in a proposal but rather in each instance (pvp is allowed if both people agree right?) Allowing a mechanism for duels in the city should be a device DM's have available to them - but if we take it away with silly swoop down tactics no one has that choice.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Personally, I'm not in favour of increasing PvP, but I do agree with DH that the speed of response of the guards was a bit ridiculous (as was the 'okay children, settle your differences and you can leave' dungeon). So Joe called in the guards over harsh words in the tavern? Does that mean that whether or not the halfling backstabbed the Wizard that the guards would have come and cast Sleep either way? Does he always do this, and if so, why haven't we seen this happen at other incidents that did not lead to violence? (I've seen them happen--at least Zaeryl has been threatened with violence before in the inn, but Zaeryl didn't care and responded coldly, as Zaeryl typically does)

 

[DerHauptman]

RA Please don't take this as me wanting to encourage PVP. Hell, I got a CE orc and I will likely never do it.

Just saying that if we take any and all instance of dueling or the mere mention of its culture as moot and a total "NOT GONNA HAPPEN EVAR!" then we take a choice away from people. That is what I am for - choice

If it is overlooked as stated then it can happen and should be adjudicated (if agreed to) for the players fairly and without ones personal prejudice against PVP in LEW getting in the way with fanciful response times and all knowing agents and guards on call at a moments notice.

Its a big city and a city watch per the DMG is only so big. It can't be everywhere at once. Heck contacting the watch could even be a multi minute task unless they are employing the high-magic methods and such. I find that a bit like calling 911 for a speeding ticket in fantasy terms fighting and dying are common things.

Off topic wasn't that fun to read though? LOL!

 

[SlagMortar]

The "Handshake Affair" was actually what attracted me to LEW. Not the PVP, but the opportunity to not have to get along with everyone all the time. Just to play Devil's Advocate, I do have two counter points to the assertion that the response time was ridiculous (though I don't agree with the reason given for the response time).

1. One of the players clearly did not want to have a duel. I think that justifies a little metagaming. If both players wanted a duel and agreed to any kind of dueling protocol, like going to the beach, there would have been no guard intervention.
2. The Red Dragon Inn seems like just the place to have a few extra guards stationed nearby to prevent fights.

Edit: I'm definitely in favor of an underground dueling culture, though I can't think of a reason that would get any of my characters to participate because of their own attitudes on that sort of thing.

 

[SlagMortar]

There are also some good adventure hooks that could come out of dueling among NPCs. The evil what's his name killed my brother in a duel because he cheated! My son was killed in a duel by what's his name and though it was fair, I want revenge. I'm dueling what's his name tomorrow so do you think you could meet me a couple minutes beforehand and cast Bull's Strength on me and Protection From Good/Evil on me? I'm dueling what's his name on Tuesday, could you cast Magic Aura on this really nifty sword I bought with my copious amounts of money because we hired a wizard to check that our swords were not magic before the duel.

 

[Patlin]

Truth being stranger than fiction and all that, I know about too many instances of people doing silly things right in front of police officers to find the mere arival of the watch to be that disturbing.

Let me stress I'm only responding to the very limited subject of the watch's response time.

For example, I prosecuted a case in which two guys who knew each other vaguely were taking swings at each other "all in good fun" as they explained to me later and almost tripped over a pair of cops. The cops ticketed them for fighting, seperated them and sent them on their way with great rapidity.

I also know of several bars (and not disreputable ones either) that have trouble so regularly that police being nearby at 2 AM is standard procedure, not accident.

Of course, my experiences are from the real life modern world, which may not compare well to LEW. However, if you commanded the Orussus watch, wouldn't you have some people posted to monitor the RDI, where one can regularly find the wholesome combination of highly armed mercenaries and liquor?