General Discussion Thread IX

[SlagMortar]

highly armed mercenaries and liquor?

Not just liquor, FREE liquor.

 

[orsal]

I find it laughable that the City of Ossirus has the funds and assets available and poised to respond to a fight in the street between two unknown drifters in the largest city in the world in 30 seconds.

I found that incredible too, but rather than dismiss it as "laughable" I took it as a powerful indicator about Orussus. For me, it wasn't just that the City Watch intervened to break up the fight, but that the force used to do that included a mage (casting a sleep spell).

Think about it. I think it's quite reasonable that the Orussus City Watch should have a few wizards in its force. But they aren't cheap -- their salaries are several times your average War1 patrolman's. So they'd be used only in the most important jobs. Now the job of stopping a couple of good-for-nothings from killing each other -- that's something they may want to do, but not something I'd expect them to devote significant resources to.

So, if they have such resources to spend on such an inconsequential disturbance, this is clearly not a city lacking for law and order. Ever since the Handshake Incident, I have recognized Orussus as an unusually safe and abnormally well-patrolled city.

I'd say more overlooked than tolerated, but the effect for PCs is the same.

I disagree, the effect is not the same and if you insist that any instance of a duel is immediately known and quelled - then that is a locomotive in motion my Friend and a poor meta one at that. I'll buy that the city has a law against open dueling. That does not mean it can’t and does not happen with frequency.

I like the idea that the overlooking is somewhat deliberate, even if the action is technically illegal, provided certain important boundaries are observed. If there are certain sites known as duelling spots -- especially if they are located outside some well-defined perimeter, such as the city walls -- then tolerating duels in those sites ensures that, among other things, participants were willingly engaged in a combat of honour.

By accepting duelling within clearly understood limits -- whether those limits are codified in law or merely established in the culture -- it is easier to prevent people settling their grudges outside of those limits. Those limits can include procedure (codes of honour governing how duels happen) as well as locale.

 

[El Jefe]

This is for everyone, not just DerHauptman. However, he left me a few quotes that put my remarks in context, so...(removing sblock from some worthwhile thoughts he had)

I find it laughable that the City of Ossirus has the funds and assets available and poised to respond to a fight in the street between two unknown drifters in the largest city in the world in 30 seconds.

That's not the way it appeared to me as a player at that time.

Most of the people in the bar could hear heated words coming out of the back room. Joe certainly knew about it, although there was no explicit post to that effect. The characters came out of the back room, still talking smack. One was obviously terrified of the other and against a duel, and tried to do everything he could think of to avoid it. He stated in as many words in front of Joe that he was going to leave the RDI to duel the other character. Joe doesn't like that kind of thing (it's forbidden by him in the RDI), so he secretly alerted the watch. I don't know exactly how he did it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had some magical signaling means available to him. The watch was headed toward the RDI before the first duelist had even left the building.

I chalk arriving in 30 seconds to be partly luck...a patrol must have been in the area, and quickly diverted to the scene. As Slagmortar said, it's not that far-fetched that some resources are pre-positioned there. Things rarely get out of hand in the RDI, but when they do, they call for a full-fledged response now.

Then with all the money and time our city’s finest have left we’ll have a task force with surveillance, rapid response, high tech gadgetry and undercover informants work on all the fights between drunks in the parking lots of bars after they close. That’s the parallel I draw to all the messengers secret enforcers and teleporting guards in that thread.

Uh, nobody teleported. Joe has an "in" with the watch, tipped them off, and a local patrol was able to respond in jig time. DM fiat, to be sure, but plausible without ridiculous resources being thrown around.

I find the reaction of the city watch to the events outside the RDI to be some of the most railroaded, controlling and manufactured meddling by a DM in the choices of players in 20+ years of gaming.

I think that's a bit much, but I agree that the resolution the DM picked was a bit too contrived for my tastes. In fairness, he had to deal with the metagame issues of 1), one player wasn't truly willing, and 2), whatever he did would set a LEW precedent. He could have done worse.
(returning to the non-sblocked material)

I think in a world where people live and die by their reputations and their skills at the sword, spell or quick why would there not be a culture of dueling? It might be a counter culture sure but a culture none the less.

I think you're right about this. The culture is there, but it is by necessity hidden. Because it is hidden, we've not been exposed to it in-game so far. And in the Handshake Incident, we had two out-of-towners who didn't understand the rules and didn't know how to get into the fight club bungle things very badly and very publically. Since it "set a precedent", we haven't had a repeat. In my opinion, that's not such a horrible thing. We didn't close the door to PvP or even dueling entirely, just established that PvP wouldn't take place without mutual consent, and that dueling could not be conducted openly in the streets of Orussus. I don't think we lost that much.

I mean when two guys fight outside a bar at closing time (having been a bouncer I have some knowledge of this topic) “when” and the bigger question “IF” the police actually do ever come likely they will admonish them and send them home with a friend to sleep it off.

Well, I think that's a matter of comparing apples to oranges. If it had been a couple of guys resorting to fisticuffs, that might have been the outcome. But what we had was two guys who threatened to kill each other in front of a bunch of witnesses, then when one tried to leave, the other stabbed him in the back, and the first was about to blast the other to Kingdom Come. A little more serious situation, one that merited a more serious response. Note that the outcome was actually lenient by today's standards...I doubt you could start a bar fight by stabbing someone in the back and escape prosecution.

Those are our modern standards, we are talking about a different kind of culture. More akin to a set of rules like the American West Circa 1870-1900.

Not that different. Orussus has a large transient population, and the locals have cracked down against the "travellers". Now, Orussus's reputation as a law and order town is widespread, and most ruffians are on their best behavior - at least in front of the Watch - when they're in town. Think of it as being a little like the town in the Clint Eastwood movie, "Unforgiven". There isn't much crime because they're kinda strict.

If you want a different culture, it's available. Parts of Monemvassia are more like Chicago during prohibition, with gangs striving for dominance just out of sight of the city fathers (or maybe with a healthy bribe to them). Rivenblight is more like Venice in the era of the Borgias, with lots of family feuds and high intrigue. And if you like the American wild west, Lathirn is probably your best bet...complete with weak and/or corrupt officials who let all sorts of crime thrive. (Then again, parts of Medibaria make Orussus seem wild and wooly...)

If we insist that no matter what the guards will stop it then we are doing nothing more than firing the boiler on our Locomotive my friends. Heck a mêlée fight between two 1st level characters will likely last some 12 seconds or so. How fast can the gurads react?

Well, as a professor at a midwest university was fond of saying, "the standard deviation of a single sample is infinity". And we've had a single sample...a single botched duel...to draw from. I don't think the watch will respond to a pickup street brawl in 12 seconds. In my game, a shootout took place in a fancy hotel, and the watch took a minute or two to arrive even when they were summoned. In our one sample, two characters muttered that they were going to commit a crime within earshot of a police auxilliary...then proceeded to start comitting the crime before they were half out the door! No wonder the response was swift...I'd expect to get hauled in quick if I was stealing hubcaps off of cars parked in front of the police station!

I say that in a fantasy city, any city, even in modern times with all of our high tech gadgetry and police methods things happen every day that will never be known.

I agree. In the game that I DM, the Watch is an integral part of things (it's a murder mystery set in Orussus), and still they can't solve the puzzle (it's up to the party to do that).

Therefore, I say that while it may be illegal, there would and should be a counter culture of dueling in the city – a rich and diverse one at that.

Mmmmmaybe. That there is one, I don't doubt. How rich and diverse, I couldn't say. Against the backdrop of Orussus as a town that relies on trade but is justifiably uneasy with strangers and relies on strict law enforcement to keep them in check, I wouldn't know just how popular that kind of thing would be. Sounds like a good adventure hook!

So lets not make heavy handed choices for the players until we consider what they want. By that I mean not in general like in a proposal but rather in each instance (pvp is allowed if both people agree right?)

I'll just say that in general, I agree with this, that PvP is available if mutual consent exists, and that characters who take reasonable precautions to not have their duel discovered by the authorities will generally be successful.

Disposing of a dead body may complicate things, though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

(Then again, parts of Medibaria make Orussus seem wild and wooly...)

D'oh! El Jefe, care to point me to any thread other than mine where characters deal with Medibarian culture? I asked I think at least three times and everyone told me there were no threads that went there and the creator was gone I think I may have been trampling badly on what came before if the people who told me this were wrong

 

[DerHauptman]

Orsal, dude...This all happened loong ago and as far as I can see none of the current powers were involved so relax. I express my opinion that the response was indeed laughable to me it is for sure. Also a locomotive on tracks so straight and narrow that...well its a train track...

However, I think also that it set a poor precedent for the culture of Ossirus at large. I won't call the response a testament to the excellent resources of Ossirus's finest. I'd call it something else but I've said it already - CHOO CHOO.

So, if they have such resources to spend on such an inconsequential disturbance, this is clearly not a city lacking for law and order. Ever since the Handshake Incident, I have recognized Orussus as an unusually safe and abnormally well-patrolled city.

That there only showed me that someone, a judge, that particular judge or whomever, had a problem with disorder in the streets and didn't want that to happen in "his" view of what Ossirus is. It is a Fiat the size of an 18 Wheeler!

I just suggest we stay away from that sort of response in the future and let people make their choices is all.

When and if I DM there Will be duels in the city (hell I'll make an adventure around dueling) and the watch of course like all watches will likely not come at all and if they do they will be late and clueless as dueling between consenting parties not in the city streets is not something the city would likely spend a great deal of resources on. I know that, you know that, we know that!

Of course, my experiences are from the real life modern world, which may not compare well to LEW. However, if you commanded the Russes watch, wouldn't you have some people posted to monitor the RDI, where one can regularly find the wholesome combination of highly armed mercenaries and liquor?

I agree with you on all accounts.

I have in effect been the military law in a small town in Afghanistan, yea there was a place where heavily armed men met and sometimes with, often over matters of honor ironically, disastrous results (the goat market of all things) and I made disarmament part of entry.

To this I will add though if I only had a limited amount of resources and 20 such markets to patrol, my primary mission of hunting bad guys would have had to rule out and I'd have to accept that bad things might happen in the market. Thankfully only one market.

I imagine though we only meet at and play one Inn in a city the size of Ossirus there must be more and if we have all the guards on drunk watch who is protecting the rest of the people?

I am agreeing with you but offering again that the resources of any government are finite.

If you want a different culture, it's available. Parts of Monemvassia are more like Chicago during prohibition, with gangs striving for dominance just out of sight of the city fathers (or maybe with a healthy bribe to them). Rivenblight is more like Venice in the era of the Borgias, with lots of family feuds and high intrigue. And if you like the American wild west, Lathirn is probably your best bet...complete with weak and/or corrupt officials who let all sorts of crime thrive. (Then again, parts of Medibaria make Orussus seem wild and wooly...)

Cool, however, at present we only have one city open with an INN that is moderated. If moderation is a problem I'd be willing to moderate an INN in a city like Lathrim. It'd be a wonderful change of pace from law heavy Ossirus for players to start in. We could do lots of things with it. I have the time for that. All you have to do is say yes we'll give it a name and go for it from there. I could think of some characters who'd fit better there than Ossirus just by scanning the character thread.

 

[El Jefe]

D'oh! El Jefe, care to point me to any thread other than mine where characters deal with Medibarian culture?(

There aren't any. I was interpreting what I've been reading in your thread.

I mean, come on, you have to have a license to put on a street performance, and it's a closed shop to outsiders! Even more xenophobic than Orussus...it's virtually impossible to support yourself through honest means in parts of Medibaria unless you have some sort of sponsor (or are a native).

 

[Rystil Arden]

There aren't any. I was interpreting what I've been reading in your thread.

I mean, come on, you have to have a license to put on a street performance, and it's a closed shop to outsiders! Even more xenophobic than Orussus...it's virtually impossible to support yourself through honest means in parts of Medibaria unless you have some sort of sponsor (or are a native).

Yay, I was afraid I might have missed something--you don't know how relieved I am that it was actually my thread from which this was coming

But yeah, they are indeed more xenophobic than Orussus about foreigners coming in and taking money away from Medibarians(a bit like the way some people in the US are upset by outsourced jobs or illegal aliens who will accept under-minimum-wage prices, I guess).

They are more than happy to welcome tourists with open arms and treat them as valued friends, as long as they don't try to set up shop without becoming a citisen / guild member. Anyone who refuses to do so is expected to perform untrained labour (at the price given for using the Profession skill untrained) or leave. Anyone who does join the appropriate guild and becomes a citisen finds that if she is willing to adapt to Medibarian culture, then she is most likely quickly accepted and treated as one of their own, particularly by her guildmates (though there are some Highborne who will always look down on her).

Or at least that was what I was going for in my thread.

 

[El Jefe]

When and if I DM there Will be duels in the city (hell I'll make an adventure around dueling) and the watch of course like all watches will likely not come at all and if they do they will be late and clueless as dueling between consenting parties not in the city streets is not something the city would likely spend a great deal of resources on.

If you do, I suggest that you set it in some part of the city away from the RDI. There's a new Sergeant on that beat who's a real spit-and-polish type who doesn't miss much. Just got promoted up from Patrolman, and he's already bucking for Captain...

Now, the harbor area...that part of town is scary!

If moderation is a problem I'd be willing to moderate an INN in a city like Lathrim...All you have to do is say yes we'll give it a name and go for it from there.

I think it would be cool, and I think you'd be good at it. I also think we have a terrible track record for introducing new taverns...we've got a couple in limbo, to be opened "someday".

The metagame reasons it hasn't done well have to do with the tradeoff between the manpower pool and the adventure pool, and with the specialized nature of the other tavern proposals. The first issue has to do with keeping both PCs and DMs from languishing during recruiting...I think the fear is that a 2nd tavern would cause a lot of PCs to spend more down time waiting for an adventure. The other issue is that we've had a tavern on wheels proposal, one that magically aappears in a different town every night. Nice flavor, but hard to coordinate adventures for. The other was the "Orussus Evil Tavern" proposal, and you can see what happened to that by glancing at the demographics of our PCs...very low evil-to-neutral-and-good ratio.

Aw, what the hey...you can figure out the odds and decide for yourself if you want to try it. I guarantee you, if you propose it and it goes nowhere, nobody is going to think that it would have succeeded with someone else!

 

[Dungannon]

If you do, I suggest that you set it in some part of the city away from the RDI. There's a new Sergeant on that beat who's a real spit-and-polish type who doesn't miss much. Just got promoted up from Patrolman, and he's already bucking for Captain...

Let's just hope Vagan remembers those who helped him get there.

 

[Velmont]

The first PC transaction happen in Rinaldo di Senzio shop. Woohoo!

Now, avalaible at di Senzio's Magical Shop, a choice of arcane and divine scrolls. You want to learn a new spell? You want to have a few scrolls of Cure Light Wounds on you to heal yourself after combat? Come to di Senzio's Magical Shop