General Discussion Thread X

[Rystil Arden]

Rules question, since I don't see an obvious answer and it was brought up in an approval of mine.

Can the human paragon choose Perform as their adaptive learning skill? Or does it have to be a single form of Perform? It only notes Knowledge as being special like this, and I've never seen Perform listed separately in a class, so I figured it was fine.

If not, I'll just change it, but I want to make sure it's correct, and I can see the judge's point.

If you can choose all knowledge, then I think you should definitely be able to choose all Perform (heck, I would easily allow all Perform but I would never allow all Knowledge except that it was spelled out).

 

[orsal]

If you can choose all knowledge,

You can't -- that's quite explicit. I hadn't noticed that until now. I'd assumed that it would be the same four all four classes of skills treated in parallel -- they're different skills, a rank in one skill doesn't give you anything in the others skills of the same class -- but it is intriguing that it is spelled out for Knowledge but not for the others. Hmmm...

 

[Rystil Arden]

You can't -- that's quite explicit. I hadn't noticed that until now. I'd assumed that it would be the same four all four classes of skills treated in parallel -- they're different skills, a rank in one skill doesn't give you anything in the others skills of the same class -- but it is intriguing that it is spelled out for Knowledge but not for the others. Hmmm...

I think that implies that you get all Craft, all Profession, and all Perform. My logic? Threefold--first, no real class in all of D&D gets some but not all of any of those skills, so they seem to always travel together (as opposed to Knowledge). Second, they did mention knowledge specifically, which means there is a good chance they left out the others on purpose because they wanted them to travel together, and by strict RAW reading, that's what happens anyway. Third, separate Knowledge skills actually give you useful synergies and separate information. Separate Perform / Craft / Profession are a waste of skill points mechanically in most situations and rarely useful for anything other than roleplaying your character, since the mechanics for gaining GP or using the skills is identical no matter which one you pick.

 

[orsal]

I think that implies that you get all Craft, all Profession, and all Perform. My logic? Threefold--first, no real class in all of D&D gets some but not all of any of those skills, so they seem to always travel together (as opposed to Knolwledge).

I guess "all of D&D" does not include LEW? All of published D&D, sure, to the best of my knowledge. In LEW, that's not true -- fighters and barbarians have Perform(gladiatorial) as a class skill.

Second, they did mention knowledge specifically, which means there is a good chance they left out the others on purpose because they wanted them to travel together,

That's one of the two reasons I find compelling; see my addition below for the other.

and by strict RAW reading, that's what happens anyway. Third, separate Knowledge skills actually give you useful synergies and separate information. Separate Perform / Craft / Profession are a waste of skill points mechanically in most situations and rarely useful for anything other than roleplaying your character, since the mechanics for gaining GP or using the skills is identical no matter which one you pick.

Although in the case of Perform, it may matter for prerequisites.

I should add a fourth: the wizard and bard listings of class skills say explicitly Knowledge (all skills, taken individually). There is never any such comment for any of the other three packages.

So, I'm persuaded now. Solange, I drop that objection to your character, and will look it over again when the other points have been corrected.

 

[Solange]

So, I'm persuaded now. Solange, I drop that objection to your character, and will look it over again when the other points have been corrected.

Thanks

I thought it was a good question to debate, and figured this would be a good place to ask, and I could see your point, but I think this is the right decision. I'll get that other stuff fixed up and resubmit.

And a good catch none the less, and glad you're trying to keep us honest

 

[Rystil Arden]

I should add a fourth: the wizard and bard listings of class skills say explicitly Knowledge (all skills, taken individually). There is never any such comment for any of the other three packages.

I quibble--this is exactly the same as my 1st reason--in normal D&D (including all published WotC supplements) you can't take the skills individually as class skills. Perform Gladiatorial, which I didn't realise we gave to those two classes, is not just illegal by normal RAW, it is a possible gamebreaker with prestige classes that have a Perform (Any) prereq and a BAB prereq (and other things we don't currently have in LEW and probably won't gain as well that would be veeery weird to use Gladiatorial Perform for, such as Melodic Casting) though otherwise it isn't a problem, so I'll need to remember that.

 

[Bront]

I quibble--this is exactly the same as my 1st reason--in normal D&D (including all published WotC supplements) you can't take the skills individually as class skills. Perform Gladiatorial, which I didn't realise we gave to those two classes, is not just illegal by normal RAW, it is a possible gamebreaker with prestige classes that have a Perform (Any) prereq and a BAB prereq (and other things we don't currently have in LEW and probably won't gain as well that would be veeery weird to use Gladiatorial Perform for, such as Melodic Casting) though otherwise it isn't a problem, so I'll need to remember that.

Perform: Gladiatorial works a bit differently than normal perform I think anyway... (Admitedly, looking at it, I think it realy falls better under Intimidate, which both classes have)

 

[orsal]

I quibble--this is exactly the same as my 1st reason--in normal D&D (including all published WotC supplements) you can't take the skills individually as class skills.

Is it the same? If the same parenthetical note were added, in every class skill list in which they appeared, to Perform, Craft and Profession, your first reason as I understood it would not be affected, but my 4th reason, which I find much more persuasive, would be clearly invalidated.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Is it the same? If the same parenthetical note were added, in every class skill list in which they appeared, to Perform, Craft and Profession, your first reason as I understood it would not be affected, but my 4th reason, which I find much more persuasive, would be clearly invalidated.

I would say that the parenthetical actually would invalidate my first point--the parenthetical being present implies that it is possible to not get them all.

 

[orsal]

I would say that the parenthetical actually would invalidate my first point--the parenthetical being present implies that it is possible to not get them all.

Oh. I misunderstood. I thought you were merely saying that the canonical material *does not in fact* have any classes with some but not all perform skills, not that they were described in terms that *could not* apply to any such classes.