General Discussion

[sunshadow21]

As an aside, Jkason has introduced Martna somewhere along the Ouhm. Not exactly sure where it is but my personal idea was that it was somewhere between Gist and the northern entrance of the Grand Chasm, about the place that would work perfectly for the end of the trade route you've been working on, sunshadow. I don't know how big the city is but it already has NPCs with ties to Venza...

This turn of the discussion makes me think we need a thread just for working out and placing the detail that we've added to the world so that it doesn't get lost or overwritten.

There's also a proposal floating around for a large city right on the northern end of the Chasm. I don't know if it got ported over from the group page or not.

 

[GlassEye]

There's also a proposal floating around for a large city right on the northern end of the Chasm. I don't know if it got ported over from the group page or not.

I think that was from one of my proposals. It didn't get ported over but I do think a major city at that position makes sense for exploring this giant chasm we have on the map. I may have to resubmit it in this forum. Since we've gained some new members it may garner some discussion this time round.

 

[sunshadow21]

I think that was from one of my proposals. It didn't get ported over but I do think a major city at that position makes sense for exploring this giant chasm we have on the map. I may have to resubmit it in this forum. Since we've gained some new members it may garner some discussion this time round.

I know on the old one, I posted an idea for the different neighborhoods.

 

[Qik]

Right, so no swapping claws for bite. Understandable.

Until fourth level, you can only have three attacks. So, claw/claw/bite is the most efficient way to get those. The bite is a designed in interference so you cannot get four claw attacks at fourth level with the pounce ability. You have to wait until ninth level as a quadruped. At forth level, claw/claw/bite/gore is an efficient way to go.

Considering as a monk1/syn5 centaur form, you can do about 12d6+28 damage as all primary attacks on a pounce, why would you want to slow down to do flurry attacks. Actually, I could push that to about 16d6+32 if I went all damage with no defense. So, there is more than enough combat potential without doing a fully focused concentration on only claw attacks.

From a fluff standpoint, I'm just not a huge fan of the idea of having a bite attack, which is a definite part of my desire to swap it out. From mechanical standpoint, I'm going to be taking the Master of Many Styles, and focusing on applying style feats to my claw attacks (right now I'm thinking Dragon and Boar - I definitely like the flavor of Boar for this character), which does make for a significant difference between claws and other forms of natural attacks.

I had been thinking that, at Synthesist 4, I'd take limbs (arms) and claws anyway, to get the 4 claws, and just "eat" the extraneous, unusable bite (i.e. not use it at all), but if that's not going to be allowed, then I may give serious consideration to going biped. I really wanted pounce - great synergy with Dragon Style - but I really, really want those claw attacks.

Sorry; I don't mean to clutter up the General Discussion thread with musings on my build. I had thought about PM'ing you to discuss the build, SK, but this was on the heels of all my questions about Ni, and I didn't want to be greedy for Satin Knights Advice.

As to body form: I am not comfortable calling a gorilla like form a quadruped. That is a murky grey area. If you are wanting pounce and useful hands, a centaur form is the way to go. As the example above shows, it is quite strong after a just a few levels.

At the risk of being reactionary: this bothers me. It's fluff: I don't see how it affects you, since there's no mechanical, RAW benefit to how I conceptualize my eidolon-skin, so it bothers me that you would feel the need to voice a contrary opinion. The only issue I can see is that of functional hands, which is fair enough, although in my personal opinion, not allowing my PC to have functioning hands just because I want pounce, basically, is far too hard-line an interpretation of the system for my tastes, and I would hope that that wouldn't be a universal opinion. At the very least, I would hope we could acknowledge that, since this is indeed "a grey area," that any one opinion wouldn't be able to be made law.

Not trying to pick a fight; I always respect your opinion, SK. I just felt like that last comment was a bit to quick to dismiss my take on the character, without a lot to go on.

 

[Satin Knights]

There is a major mechanical difference. Let me try to explain. Disregarding the max number of attacks for the moment, because it becomes irrelevant at higher levels, a gorilla body form of legs, arms, claws, claws, bite called a quadruped costs 2 evolution points and has five attacks and manipulative hands. A cat form of legs, legs, claws, bite costs 1 evolution point but only has 3 attacks and no manipulative hands. The claws can only be applied to a legs evolution once. A centaur form has legs, legs, arms, claws, claws, bite to get five attacks, but costs 4 evolution points to get there with manipulative hands. The 2 evolution point cost difference between the grey gorilla example and the centaur is the issue. If you want biped, the gorilla form is perfectly fine. But that loses the access to pounce. I hope that makes sense and is clearer.

Yes, in my fluff of Gragnor, he has a split foot pad and separate thumbs. But, he has the gripping dexterity of wearing oven mittens. Using a wand or thieves tools is not going to happen easily. On his third try, he might be able to pickup a wand off of the ground. He has better luck sticking a single claw nail into a lock and wiggling it if he is attempting to unlock a lock. So far, the one trap he has worked on was a pressure plate trap which is plausible.

Looking at the feat choices you mentioned, having only two claw attacks instead of four means you would only have once chance to confirm a bleed attack for 2d6 instead of 3 chances to confirm. It's nice to have, and eventually you will get there, but it is a bit of overkill.

At sixth level, if something is still standing after an average of 70 hit points of a pounce attack that fully lands, you can let a second party member do something to finish him off. With 3/4 bab -1, you won't always land all your attacks. But, the synthesist built for all out combat makes life too easy and boring for the rest of the party.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

At the risk of being reactionary: this bothers me. It's fluff: I don't see how it affects you, since there's no mechanical, RAW benefit to how I conceptualize my eidolon-skin, so it bothers me that you would feel the need to voice a contrary opinion. The only issue I can see is that of functional hands, which is fair enough, although in my personal opinion, not allowing my PC to have functioning hands just because I want pounce, basically, is far too hard-line an interpretation of the system for my tastes, and I would hope that that wouldn't be a universal opinion. At the very least, I would hope we could acknowledge that, since this is indeed "a grey area," that any one opinion wouldn't be able to be made law.

Not trying to pick a fight; I always respect your opinion, SK. I just felt like that last comment was a bit to quick to dismiss my take on the character, without a lot to go on.

SK and I actually hashed this out - from a far less mechanical standpoint, since my brain doesn't work that way - with Gragnor. For me, it's a case of there being a way to get arms (and hence functioning hands) on a quadruped, but you have to pay for it. It's not that it's not allowed just because you want to have pounce. It's because functional hands have a big effect in-game (the ability to use weapons, the ability to pick locks and disable traps, etc.) so if they're not included in the base form you gots ta pay for 'em

 

[jkason]

The only real problem with multiple recruitment spots is that you risk folks having to follow multiple threads and / or all posting in The Dunn
Wright thread even though they're in multiple locations (which may or may not be clear to someone entering after an absence, or to new folk).

I wonder if a modified version of the Mystic Pearl fluff might be worthwhile? Instead of being available in every city, though, The Dunn Wright's only 'permanent' exit is into Venza. Because of all the magically-saturated folk who congregate there, some of whom are less disciplined than others--and many of whom wind up drunk-casting--The Dunn Wright occasionally "synchs up" to other compatible cities.

Some claim the Dunn Wright can 'sense need,' others just say it's random craziness, but whatever it is, on occasion a quest giver finds she needn't board a ship to Venza, but just walk through a local door to find herself in the heart of adventurers.

Might also explain why adventurers from all over make it a point to all wind up at The Dunn Wright.

So, if the adventure doesn't hinge on travel, you still recruit in the same place, but on a day that the doors open someplace else.

Whether the doors are still there when the PCs are done is another matter.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

I think that was from one of my proposals. It didn't get ported over but I do think a major city at that position makes sense for exploring this giant chasm we have on the map. I may have to resubmit it in this forum. Since we've gained some new members it may garner some discussion this time round.

Bonus points if you get this reference:

Please tell me there isn't a huge steam breathing dragon that patrols that chasm up and down, attacking invaders....

(throws rotten tomato at himself)

 

[Qik]

There is a major mechanical difference. Let me try to explain. Disregarding the max number of attacks for the moment, because it becomes irrelevant at higher levels, a gorilla body form of legs, arms, claws, claws, bite called a quadruped costs 2 evolution points and has five attacks and manipulative hands. A cat form of legs, legs, claws, bite costs 1 evolution point but only has 3 attacks and no manipulative hands. The claws can only be applied to a legs evolution once. A centaur form has legs, legs, arms, claws, claws, bite to get five attacks, but costs 4 evolution points to get there with manipulative hands. The 2 evolution point cost difference between the grey gorilla example and the centaur is the issue. If you want biped, the gorilla form is perfectly fine. But that loses the access to pounce. I hope that makes sense and is clearer.

Yes, in my fluff of Gragnor, he has a split foot pad and separate thumbs. But, he has the gripping dexterity of wearing oven mittens. Using a wand or thieves tools is not going to happen easily. On his third try, he might be able to pickup a wand off of the ground. He has better luck sticking a single claw nail into a lock and wiggling it if he is attempting to unlock a lock. So far, the one trap he has worked on was a pressure plate trap which is plausible.

SK and I actually hashed this out - from a far less mechanical standpoint, since my brain doesn't work that way - with Gragnor. For me, it's a case of there being a way to get arms (and hence functioning hands) on a quadruped, but you have to pay for it. It's not that it's not allowed just because you want to have pounce. It's because functional hands have a big effect in-game (the ability to use weapons, the ability to pick locks and disable traps, etc.) so if they're not included in the base form you gots ta pay for 'em

Thanks for explaining your viewpoints further.

I think where the difference for me lies, specifically in regards to Mowgli's point, is that as a Synthesist, the PC starts with manipulative hands and then has those taken away if he takes quadruped form. This seems unnecessarily restrictive to me, and a case where the word of the rules is taken too strictly. However, I can tell that I'm in the minority on this one, so I'm fine to concede the point. Given that, I'm likely to go with the biped then - I don't think I would enjoy playing a PC who didn't have fully functioning hands (it would take me a significant while to be able to afford the arms evolution in the build in question).

 

[GlassEye]

The only real problem with multiple recruitment spots is that you risk folks having to follow multiple threads and / or all posting in The Dunn
Wright thread even though they're in multiple locations (which may or may not be clear to someone entering after an absence, or to new folk).

I agree and that's why I opposed the idea whenever HolyMan pushed for it. Plus we really don't have enough people/characters to keep two recruitment spots full for recruiting. It would really bug me to recruit two from Venza and two from a city on the opposite side of the continent and have them all meet for the adventure.

I wonder if a modified version of the Mystic Pearl fluff might be worthwhile? Instead of being available in every city, though, The Dunn Wright's only 'permanent' exit is into Venza. Because of all the magically-saturated folk who congregate there, some of whom are less disciplined than others--and many of whom wind up drunk-casting--The Dunn Wright occasionally "synchs up" to other compatible cities.

Some claim the Dunn Wright can 'sense need,' others just say it's random craziness, but whatever it is, on occasion a quest giver finds she needn't board a ship to Venza, but just walk through a local door to find herself in the heart of adventurers.

Might also explain why adventurers from all over make it a point to all wind up at The Dunn Wright.

So, if the adventure doesn't hinge on travel, you still recruit in the same place, but on a day that the doors open someplace else.

Whether the doors are still there when the PCs are done is another matter.

This idea has merit and is worth discussing. Possibly an ancient gate unanchored. I think this makes things a little too easy, though.