General Discussion

[Qik]

I actually have a question of my own: anyone's welcome to chime in, of course, but I'll especially direct it at our resident synthesist expert, [MENTION=6666968]Satin Knights[/MENTION].

I've been turning around an idea for a synthesist/monk for a while now. I'm very excited about the general idea - a young man who was attacked by an unknown living entity which ended up bonding with him, and who, through his monastic training, has learned to live in harmony with and even utilize that entity. On the mechanics side of this, he'll be geared toward taking Feral Combat Training (Claws) so that he can merge his monk and synthesist abilities.

Anyway, I've been leaning towards taking the Quadruped base form for the synthesist (refluffed so that he's not constantly on all fours, only when he's fighting/charging/etc), and I wanted to see if I'd be able to switch out the bite evolution granted free by that form for a set of claws. I still might take a bite at certain levels, but since I wanted to mostly be focusing on claws throughout the life of the character, the free bite seemed like so much dead weight to me.

So anyways, let me know what your thoughts, people. Like all tweaks like this, I'd understand if it doesn't suit, but I figured it was worth asking.

 

[jkason]

Anyway, I've been leaning towards taking the Quadruped base form for the synthesist (refluffed so that he's not constantly on all fours, only when he's fighting/charging/etc), and I wanted to see if I'd be able to switch out the bite evolution granted free by that form for a set of claws. I still might take a bite at certain levels, but since I wanted to mostly be focusing on claws throughout the life of the character, the free bite seemed like so much dead weight to me.

I can't really speak to the viability of the build (Any good optimization I've ever done has been from someone else's suggestion or from a build guide), but I should think at the very least you can trade out bite at second level when you can re-allocate evolution points, yes? (And for that reason, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to swap out things at first level. I've always sort of assumed that the base evolutions netted the same amount of evolution points for each base form, though I could be wrong on that).

 

[Qik]

I'm pretty sure the base evolutions do provide more-or-less equivalent evolutions for free, but my understanding was that those evolutions were fixed, and that they couldn't be swapped for others at any level.

Of course, I could always be wrong.

 

[GlassEye]

I wanted to see if I'd be able to switch out the bite evolution granted free by that form for a set of claws.

The only switching I've seen allowed in the rules is when replacing claws with a slam attack and it still requires the summoner to pay for the evolution. My tendency would be to say that, if a switch is allowed here, like slam it would still cost EP. (FYI, my tendency is to say no to allowing a switch.)

 

[sunshadow21]

For Mopping Up, I'm basically handwaving them getting to the site of their primary job by giving them a secondary caravan guard job that is started and finished to get them in the right general area. The world is getting large enough, perhaps we should consider introducing another big city or two where adventures can start from. I'm close to opening up a route to Gist, which could serve as a natural base for the north. We could finalize the city on the Rift for that region, and maybe one in Irthos or that general area for adventures in the South. That way, even if most of the recruiting was still technically done in Venza, DMs could handwave a party getting to the general area without too much trouble as getting between the major cities could simply be handwaved as secondary jobs which constitute a single post. And if DMs still wanted a long traveling adventure, they could still make them.

 

[GlassEye]

As an aside, Jkason has introduced Martna somewhere along the Ouhm. Not exactly sure where it is but my personal idea was that it was somewhere between Gist and the northern entrance of the Grand Chasm, about the place that would work perfectly for the end of the trade route you've been working on, sunshadow. I don't know how big the city is but it already has NPCs with ties to Venza...

This turn of the discussion makes me think we need a thread just for working out and placing the detail that we've added to the world so that it doesn't get lost or overwritten.

 

[Satin Knights]

I am 98% sure that the base evolutions for an eidolon are fixed and cannot be swapped out. I didn't find a definitive answer in quick search, but the slam evolution says it can be used to replace claws, but it still costs 1 evolution point to do so. In other words, a bipedal can drop claws, add slam, but still pays for slam. Pincers is the other replaceable, but again, it is taking the claws off of arms to replace as pincers. There is no example of dropping one combat attack to get another on a different body part.

Until fourth level, you can only have three attacks. So, claw/claw/bite is the most efficient way to get those. The bite is a designed in interference so you cannot get four claw attacks at fourth level with the pounce ability. You have to wait until ninth level as a quadruped. At forth level, claw/claw/bite/gore is an efficient way to go.

Considering as a monk1/syn5 centaur form, you can do about 12d6+28 damage as all primary attacks on a pounce, why would you want to slow down to do flurry attacks. Actually, I could push that to about 16d6+32 if I went all damage with no defense. So, there is more than enough combat potential without doing a fully focused concentration on only claw attacks.

As to body form: I am not comfortable calling a gorilla like form a quadruped. That is a murky grey area. If you are wanting pounce and useful hands, a centaur form is the way to go. As the example above shows, it is quite strong after a just a few levels.

 

[IronWolf]

The world is getting large enough, perhaps we should consider introducing another big city or two where adventures can start from. I'm close to opening up a route to Gist, which could serve as a natural base for the north.

I think opening up another city could be interesting. Should we start a proposal thread for the idea and further discuss its merits?

 

[perrinmiller]

Mostly the problem seems to have been a combination of cognitive dissonance for them (characters committing to a month or more journey for a low rate when broken down into gold per in-game day) and me being caught entirely flat-footed by the negotiation RP. As a player, I tend to make a hand-waving gesture in the direction of finding out if we're being paid, then push on to questions about the quest itself. It hadn't occurred to me that others would have a tighter eye toward the accounting.

Heh, heh. Most of the time (when I remember) negotiate rewards. Why else take Diplomacy skill? LPF's reward system sort of skews everything in that regards since you cannot really earn any more rewards for better gameplay than those people who just participate and survive. {shrugs} But, that is not an excuse to forget role-playing things if you desire.

I think you got caught trying to hook us mercenary style, and as we slipped into character on it, things started to not add up. I doubt any PLAYER is going to turn down the adventure, but we needed to resolve the character motivation. The suggestion about OOC making it the TBG rewards works fine for me IC & OOC. From my position, you are a bit too worried about it, jkasen. Sorry, we gave you a hassle.

I cannot remember why we let that slide in GE's game, but I suspect it was the prospect of other things that hooked us. Besides our negotiator in that game is not a money grubber. Tyrien and Kalgor are another matter in entirely. Tyrien likes shoe shopping way more than Zelena, I think.

 

[Satin Knights]

People are really reluctant to go on the adventure because the pay isn't enough? That just strikes me as wrong and a bit rude. I understand playing things the way your character might see it but sometimes you've gotta metagame a bit. You've put in the effort to provide them an adventure. Are they going to wait for something with better pay? It just boggles my mind (like when people refused to go on Frog Hunt because it wasn't heroic enough).

No, metagame wise, the initial offer of 1,000 seemed reasonable, but a roleplaying push for more got a clarification of a split five ways for 200. The budget of the script just didn't account for it. I don't think any of us players are thinking of bailing, it is just a matter of jkason got surprised at RP of the negotiations. We have several GMs in the game, and none of us are really sure what the numbers should be.

Character wise, the job isn't saving people in danger, or stopping some great evil. It is a little political backstabbing so a profit monger can get richer. It will likely taint the characters as house A mercenaries who can never work for house B. So, it cuts down future employment opportunities. And the pay offered was about one fifth of what we would normally make on any given day.

"It's and easy job. Guard some papers. Guard some rocks. Take the slow trip to return to me and let me make all the money." Kalgor feels he is being setup as a patsy, but has no other prospects at the moment, so he is taking the job anyways.

So, to hire a party of 4 5th level adventurers, the DM is going to have to put in one APL+2 encounter with no treasure at all just to entice them into going. I suppose if you have encounters with no treasure reward you could pool that money and use it for initial pay.

Or you could use the adventure's expected TBG as initial pay. This would need to be clear up front so that it worked without causing confusion. For example, I expected Still Waters to run for three months. I could have said Sekmun offered 2000 gp each for the work he wanted from you (90 days x 31 gp = 2790; short it just in case the adventure goes faster than expected). Quite a bit more enticement and provides an explanation for the TBG that the character receives. As it stands now in Still Waters I've not provided explanation for TBG; characters will just end up with a bunch of money they didn't have when they started. Upon reflection I think this method would probably work the best though it isn't without its hazards.

I don't know what the proper amount should be. The TBG table seemed to be a good baseline. Maybe a soft guideline of 1/2 the amount on that table for the number of days (in game) the mission is expected to take would be a better answer for the enticement offer by the NPC. Less when it is "save the poor villagers" and more when it is politics/assassination/steal X that could create long term difficulties or jail time for the characters. Slotting the money as coming from TBG is fine, because in reality, we are getting a balanced (killed total X, loot total G) and (TBX,TBG) anyways. So, as long as the total of all four numbers is greater than the offer number, all is good.


That would put it about 465 gp for a month long mission in game for fifth level characters. Politics of siding with one house over the other may push that up to 500 gp. Still above the 200 offered, but reasonable enough to get someone's attention at that level.

My initial OOC comment about it was because it felt more like first level pay, and the profit monger doesn't have spare coin to finance her get rich quick scheme. If it was a poor helpless villager that is getting help because bugbears and gnolls are overruning his village, Kalgor would blindly accept smaller pay. But, when the motive of the adventure, as put to him, is profit, and to not share that profit, well??

Adventures don't have to be recruited in Venza...

I suggested maybe we could return by teleport to greatly shorten the time of the mission, but the distance is too far.