General Discussion

[Maidhc O Casain]

Hey, soulnova! Just sent a PM your way, but it looks like you're finding your way around quite nicely.

I can't XP you again until I spread some around, but I second the welcomes offered in your first post!

 

[jkason]

Hey guys, looking for a little help to avoid making the same mistake twice:

Is there a chart available (or would it be possible to make a chart for LPF) which shows what an appropriate "hire on" incentive is for a standard party at level X? 200 gp apiece was the hire-on for Still Waters (level 4 verging to 5), but I seem to have stalled out the beginning of Kostry Kopec (most characters just having gained 5th level) with a similar offer.

My understanding is that part of the problem is the adventure hook calls for 'extended travel.' However, in PBP, traveling for two weeks is effectively the same as traveling for two months: in game, time is really determined far more by encounters than by actual distance. With the hard set wealth-by-level limits, I guess I'm a bit flummoxed on how to properly account for a level-appropriate hiring fee, especially since, the higher the level, the more exotic (and thus distant) I'm inclined to make the locale? I'm hoping some kind of reference might help me avoid the issue in future.

Or maybe I should just go back to level 1 adventures with gem-dropping eagles.

 

[Qik]

Or maybe I should just go back to level 1 adventures with gem-dropping eagles.

Hooray for gem-dropping eagles!

 

[Satin Knights]

I was going with the Time based XP and GP chart as a baseline. For 30 days of spy/guard duty a first level adventurer could look forward to 180 gp and fit just fine into your 200 gp budget. But a fifth level veteran would be expecting more like 930 gp for a month's work. That was my assumption.

When Kalgor is sitting at the table with more money in his pocket than the employer is offering in total to the group of five, it seemed a bit off. (The last two items he wanted at the Pearl were not available.)

 

[jkason]

I was going with the Time based XP and GP chart as a baseline. For 30 days of spy/guard duty a first level adventurer could look forward to 180 gp and fit just fine into your 200 gp budget. But a fifth level veteran would be expecting more like 930 gp for a month's work. That was my assumption.

Ah, and that, I think, is where the big discrepancy was for me. Since time xp/gp is based on play time, not game time, and the lion's share of the 30 days involved is non-encounter, hand-wavable travel (all but a few days of it being at the end of all the encounters, even), I went with what seemed fairly standard from my limited experience in other 5th-ish level games and rewards from inside the pre-printed module I based this on.

I guess part of the dilemma here is that all adventures are recruited in Venza, but not all adventures are going to be set in Venza. Nor will there always be a quick method of getting PCs to (or back from) further-off locales. It's the second time I've had to deal with it; only the first where the distance was problematic at the hook stage.

When Kalgor is sitting at the table with more money in his pocket than the employer is offering in total to the group of five, it seemed a bit off. (The last two items he wanted at the Pearl were not available.)

Well, in general I'd expect most PCs are usually walking around carrying a lot more monetary worth even (or especially) when fully-equipped than an initial hook is likely to offer by way of payment. The point is perfectly reasonable, but seems to me to point to a dilemma with adventure-gaming economies in general.

 

[GlassEye]

People are really reluctant to go on the adventure because the pay isn't enough? That just strikes me as wrong and a bit rude. I understand playing things the way your character might see it but sometimes you've gotta metagame a bit. You've put in the effort to provide them an adventure. Are they going to wait for something with better pay? It just boggles my mind (like when people refused to go on Frog Hunt because it wasn't heroic enough).

200 gp apiece was the hire-on for Still Waters (level 4 verging to 5), but I seem to have stalled out the beginning of Kostry Kopec (most characters just having gained 5th level) with a similar offer.

There was also the 100 gp each hazard pay for each dangerous situation dealt with during travel. That still only amounted to 300 gp each; way under by SK's method.

I was going with the Time based XP and GP chart as a baseline. For 30 days of spy/guard duty a first level adventurer could look forward to 180 gp and fit just fine into your 200 gp budget. But a fifth level veteran would be expecting more like 930 gp for a month's work.

So, to hire a party of 4 5th level adventurers, the DM is going to have to put in one APL+2 encounter with no treasure at all just to entice them into going. I suppose if you have encounters with no treasure reward you could pool that money and use it for initial pay.

Or you could use the adventure's expected TBG as initial pay. This would need to be clear up front so that it worked without causing confusion. For example, I expected Still Waters to run for three months. I could have said Sekmun offered 2000 gp each for the work he wanted from you (90 days x 31 gp = 2790; short it just in case the adventure goes faster than expected). Quite a bit more enticement and provides an explanation for the TBG that the character receives. As it stands now in Still Waters I've not provided explanation for TBG; characters will just end up with a bunch of money they didn't have when they started. Upon reflection I think this method would probably work the best though it isn't without its hazards.

I guess part of the dilemma here is that all adventures are recruited in Venza, but not all adventures are going to be set in Venza. Nor will there always be a quick method of getting PCs to (or back from) further-off locales. It's the second time I've had to deal with it; only the first where the distance was problematic at the hook stage.

Adventures don't have to be recruited in Venza but it is true that since the Dunn Wright Inn is where the characters gather and socialize that that's where recruitment happens. To me, it is no less a strain of disbelief for a DM to say, 'You all have been working, traveling, exploring, whatever your personal reasons are, but have ended up in Rorn...' and do the recruiting from there. That would mean the DM would need to recruit players before the NPC recruits characters but that shouldn't be a problem since we've kinda been working out who's available and when when planning what is upcoming.

Anyway, just a few of my thoughts; hope they were useful to you.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

Idiotic question...is there a reason why all other Arcane classes have Use Magic Device as a class skill but Wizards have it as Crossclass (unusuable untrained) ?

 

[Qik]

I assume it's because wizards are already king when it comes to magic.

You could always take the Dangerously Curious trait.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

Just seemed weird, but I guess they assume spells that'll be stored in wands will be commonly prepared by a Wizard. The others with their more restricted spell lists might not have access to some of them.

Thanks, Qik

One other one. Specialists, do they still get an additional bonus to their Save DC from the specialized school?

Nevermind. Bonus Feat - Skill Focus. *slams face repeatedly into desk*

 

[jkason]

People are really reluctant to go on the adventure because the pay isn't enough? That just strikes me as wrong and a bit rude. I understand playing things the way your character might see it but sometimes you've gotta metagame a bit. You've put in the effort to provide them an adventure. Are they going to wait for something with better pay? It just boggles my mind (like when people refused to go on Frog Hunt because it wasn't heroic enough).

I think the players have been fairly even-toned about it. Mostly the problem seems to have been a combination of cognitive dissonance for them (characters committing to a month or more journey for a low rate when broken down into gold per in-game day) and me being caught entirely flat-footed by the negotiation RP. As a player, I tend to make a hand-waving gesture in the direction of finding out if we're being paid, then push on to questions about the quest itself. It hadn't occurred to me that others would have a tighter eye toward the accounting.

So, to hire a party of 4 5th level adventurers, the DM is going to have to put in one APL+2 encounter with no treasure at all just to entice them into going. I suppose if you have encounters with no treasure reward you could pool that money and use it for initial pay.

In a meta-context, this was part of my dilemma. To try to streamline things, I nixed just about every random encounter, leaving encounters with enough treasure that I'd already trimmed a couple times.

Or you could use the adventure's expected TBG as initial pay. This would need to be clear up front so that it worked without causing confusion. For example, I expected Still Waters to run for three months. I could have said Sekmun offered 2000 gp each for the work he wanted from you (90 days x 31 gp = 2790; short it just in case the adventure goes faster than expected). Quite a bit more enticement and provides an explanation for the TBG that the character receives. As it stands now in Still Waters I've not provided explanation for TBG; characters will just end up with a bunch of money they didn't have when they started. Upon reflection I think this method would probably work the best though it isn't without its hazards.

This is what I finally wound up doing in-game. I have personal trouble with trying to guestimate adventure length (I was sure the TBX of my first adventure would combine with the encounter stuff to get everyone to 2nd level, but sadly I was off on that one), though. Add to that a general math-fear of combining encounter-balanced gold with variable TBG at the front end of the adventure, and thus having to extricate the two at the end and re-balance.

Adventures don't have to be recruited in Venza but it is true that since the Dunn Wright Inn is where the characters gather and socialize that that's where recruitment happens. To me, it is no less a strain of disbelief for a DM to say, 'You all have been working, traveling, exploring, whatever your personal reasons are, but have ended up in Rorn...' and do the recruiting from there. That would mean the DM would need to recruit players before the NPC recruits characters but that shouldn't be a problem since we've kinda been working out who's available and when when planning what is upcoming.

I probably should have tried to arrange something like that, and probably will in future if I do far-distant adventures. Instead, I wrote that hand-wave in as the recruitment: The quest the characters are being recruited for is pretty much just an excuse to get them where I want them, at which time they encounter the Actual Adventure. Which was why I was a bit embarrassed to discover I'd been careless in properly structuring for believably.

Anyway, just a few of my thoughts; hope they were useful to you.

Feedback always appreciated. Just trying to improve to better forestall similar stumbling blocks in future.