General Discussion

[Satin Knights]

Let's see. Buying a scroll and the scribing inks for all 45 9th level spells currently available across all the books costs a grand total of 208,575 gp. Buying a +5 Vorpal Greatsword cost 200,325 gp. Yep, things are priced just about right. I am not going to bother counting every spell available at every level, and totaling the total cost to have "everything". But I am sure it still fits within WBL.

Spells are a wizard's (and magus/alchemist...) weapons. It is reasonable to have to pay for them. A backup +5 Vorpal sword is not any cheaper for a fighter just because it is his backup copy.

The wizard with EVERY 9th level spell at his disposal is far more dangerous than a barbarian or paladin with a single +10 equivalent weapon. Since that little class feature of a bonded object allows you to spontaneously cast any spell in your spell book, it really is every spell at his or her disposal. Didn't you get that for free?

You also don't have to buy absolutely every spell.

 

[DalkonCledwin]

Let's see. Buying a scroll and the scribing inks for all 45 9th level spells currently available across all the books costs a grand total of 208,575 gp. Buying a +5 Vorpal Greatsword cost 200,325 gp. Yep, things are priced just about right. I am not going to bother counting every spell available at every level, and totaling the total cost to have "everything". But I am sure it still fits within WBL.

Spells are a wizard's (and magus/alchemist...) weapons. It is reasonable to have to pay for them. A backup +5 Vorpal sword is not any cheaper for a fighter just because it is his backup copy.

The wizard with EVERY 9th level spell at his disposal is far more dangerous than a barbarian or paladin with a single +10 equivalent weapon. Since that little class feature of a bonded object allows you to spontaneously cast any spell in your spell book, it really is every spell at his or her disposal. Didn't you get that for free?

You also don't have to buy absolutely every spell.

Looking at it from the perspective of a magus wanting to transcribe his or her entire library to a new set of spellbooks (something that would likely have to occur at least once or twice in the lifetime of an elf, assuming that said Elf does not have magical spellbooks such as the Blessed Book that withstand the ravages of time) then a conservative estimate (where I don't take into account the price of spells learned via scrolls or other spellbooks) places the cost of transcribing the spells at somewhere around 30,047.5 GP. That is for a total of 113 spells and cantrips. A Respectable Magus would have a far larger library than that. That said, a Wizard with only access to 6th level spells would be of 11th level, and at 11th level the WBL tables place the expected wealth of a character at somewhere around 82,000 GP. So to expect a level 11 character to spend somewhere on the order of 30,047.5 GP to transcribe his or her entire library or heck just 2010 GP to copy a single spell from a friends spellbook... is kind of screwy.

You guys do realize that Living Pathfinder is the only system I know of that penalizes people for copying spells from a friends spellbook or a spellbook that they find on an adventure, right? At this point it may just be easier to start casting spells directly out of said found spellbooks instead of transcribing them directly into your own spellbook. At least that way you don't have to pay the additional cost of transcribing them into your own spellbook. The only drawback is that some wizards or magi booby trap their spellbooks.

Oh and Satin Knights, slight correction. The Bonded Item Boon that allows a Wizard to cast any spell out of his or her spellbook spontaneously.... as far as I know only applies to that specific spellbook (i.e. the Bonded Item itself). It does not however apply to additional spellbooks. So as soon as the Bonded Item runs out of pages, that is the end of the bonded items utility as a means to casting spontaneous spells. As far as I know anyways. And if that ability is your reason for penalizing all spellcasters that cast spells out of spellbooks. Good job, because not all spellcasting classes that use spellbooks happen to have access to the bonded item ability. Magi for example do not gain that benefit unless it is through various alternative methods of gaining (it is not one of their native abilities) so penalizing them for a wizard ability seems a bit much to me.

EDIT: Also my complaint has nothing to do with buying every single spell possible as you seem to think. Rather it has to do with the fact that Living Pathfinder seems to be willing to put additional rules onto things that really have no need of having additional rules put onto them. Especially when they tend to balance themselves out. When you can show me a Wizard who can realistically carry around 40 or 50 full size spellbooks and a couple of blessed books, just so he can have every spell in the Compendium of Magic A-Z (old D&D Books that listed every magic spell both official and fan made back in the day, there were 4 of them), and who has somehow discovered a way to cast divine spells as if they were arcane spells. I will politely concede my point that having said Wizard pay his entire fortune to copy his spells into those spellbooks was worth it.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

When we originally put LPF together, we tried to set it up keeping character balance and ease of bookkeeping in mind. We did incorporate a few things that fly in the face of logic and previous conventions.

The 100% buy back rule. As far as I know, we're the only system in town that allows you to sell back equipment at 100% of book price. I've yet to hear anyone complaining about this one, even though no one else has this convention . . .

No price break on crafting of magic items.

Scribing spells costs the same across the board - whether one is copying them from a friends spellbook, a found scroll, or a bought scroll.

There are no "shortcuts" or "deals."

You guys do realize that Living Pathfinder is the only system I know of that penalizes people for copying spells from a friends spellbook or a spellbook that they find on an adventure, right? At this point it may just be easier to start casting spells directly out of said found spellbooks instead of transcribing them directly into your own spellbook. At least that way you don't have to pay the additional cost of transcribing them into your own spellbook. The only drawback is that some wizards or magi booby trap their spellbooks.

And because of the 100% buy-back rule, this would be fine. The other party members benefit just as much from finding a spellbook as does the mage, because the cost of the spellbook for party treasure is calculated just as though it were a book full of scrolls.

EDIT: And the biggest Bag of Holding carries 1500 lbs/250 cubic feet of stuff. That should easily hold said spellbooks. Cost: 10000 GP (a pittance).

 

[DalkonCledwin]

Okay in that case you guys need to start charging the same price for Sunrods as you do for Everburning Torches. Seeing as how that is in effect what you guys are arguing here from a logical standpoint.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Okay in that case you guys need to start charging the same price for Sunrods as you do for Everburning Torches. Seeing as how that is in effect what you guys are arguing here from a logical standpoint.

See, now you're just being silly . (Everburning Torches last forever. Sunrods - 6 hours).

Also, I don't play wizards often (really, at all), so I wasn't sure. But I went looking. The Wizard's Bonded Object can cast any spell in the Wizard's spellbook, whether the wizard has the spell prepared or not. Bonded Objects are just objects - they aren't spellbooks, and don't have spellbooks.

 

[DalkonCledwin]

See, now you're just being silly . (Everburning Torches last forever. Sunrods - 6 hours).

Also, I don't play wizards often (really, at all), so I wasn't sure. But I went looking. The Wizard's Bonded Object can cast any spell in the Wizard's spellbook, whether the wizard has the spell prepared or not. Bonded Objects are just objects - they aren't spellbooks, and don't have spellbooks.

Correct me if I am wrong on this... but a book is an object, yes? Thus a spellbook can technically be a bonded object in and of itself, correct? That was where my confusion of the matter lay, not in the rules issue.

Also, with regard to the Sunrod vs. Everburning Torches... the argument is flawed only insomuch as it is the reverse situation to the one we are discussing. Sunrods being the consumable object, and everburning torches being the long-lasting object. But the logic behind it still stands. If you are going to charge the same price for one type of consumable object when compared to it's counterpart permanent item, then you have to do it for ALL of them. No questions asked. That includes Spellbooks & Scrolls as well as Sunrods, Matches, Torches, and Everburning Torches. Otherwise you are just being counterproductive.

 

[GlassEye]

This decision was made (as has already been explained) for metagame reasons and not based on in-game logic. It prevents wizard-type characters from getting a bunch of cheap spells. It also prevents those characters from scribing a bunch of spells into a book for a low cost and then selling the book for thousands of gold in profit.

Making comparisons between this and sunrods/everburning torches is just being argumentative. The rule serves a purpose and succeeds in that quite well. I don't see it changing anytime in the future. If this is something you can't live with, don't play a spellcaster that has to keep a spellbook.

 

[perrinmiller]

To change the subject (sorry the current one is TLDR). I posted two more entries on my DM Workshop series. One is inspired by several crappy players I have made the acquaintance of at EnWorld (mostly outside of LPF).

The second one speaks to an earlier discussion about recruitment declining at EnWorld. Not necessarily the most applicable to LPF, but most of us play more than that here.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

This decision was made (as has already been explained) for metagame reasons and not based on in-game logic. It prevents wizard-type characters from getting a bunch of cheap spells. It also prevents those characters from scribing a bunch of spells into a book for a low cost and then selling the book for thousands of gold in profit.

Making comparisons between this and sunrods/everburning torches is just being argumentative. The rule serves a purpose and succeeds in that quite well. I don't see it changing anytime in the future. If this is something you can't live with, don't play a spellcaster that has to keep a spellbook.

Well put, GE. Now that I feel that it was a mistake to have posted my original question, if it is okay with Judge(s) I will adjust Marcus' spellbook to reflect success in obtaining the spells provided by Fae'shiel and will remove the gold according to the rules in place.

 

[jackslate45]

Correct me if I am wrong on this... but a book is an object, yes? Thus a spellbook can technically be a bonded object in and of itself, correct? That was where my confusion of the matter lay, not in the rules issue.

Per the wizard entry, only a small section of iTMS can be called "Bonded". This list does not contain the spellbook

What spellbooks they cast out is another matter.