Generic Dragon: Help with CR/LA!

[Nifft]

This is my attempt to divorce dragon stats from their "color" (breath weapon). I absolutely hate that there's a chance for players to know so very much about a dragon simply by knowing its color and size. IMO, the color should be an indication of its breath weapon and energy immunity only.

Age		Size	Years	HD (hp)		Str Dex Con / Int Wis Cha

Wyrmling	T	0-5	4d12+4 (30)	11  10  13  / 10  10  12
Very Young	S	6-15	8d12+16 (68)	15  10  15  / 12  11  12
Young		S	16-25	12d12+24 (102)	17  10  15  / 14  12  14
Juvenile	M	26-50	14d12+42 (133)	21  10  17  / 14  13  14
Young Adult	M	51-100	18d12+54 (171)	23  10  17  / 16  13  16
Adult		L	101+	22d12+88 (231)	29  10  19  / 16  15  18
Mature Adult	L	201+	26d12+130 (299)	31  10  21  / 18  15  20
Old		H	401+	30d12+180 (375)	35  10  23  / 18  17  22
Very Old	H	601+	33d12+231 (445)	37  10  25  / 20  19  24
Ancient		G	801+	36d12+360 (594)	41  10  31  / 22  21  26
Wyrm		G	1001+	39d12+429 (682)	43  10  33  / 24  23  28
Great Wyrm	C	1201+	42d12+504 (777)	45  10  35  / 26  25  30

The first thing you'll notice is that they start at size Tiny, and go to size Colossal. They don't spend as much time being Huge as the typical D&D dragon, either. This is certainly a change, but I feel it's necessary to fit the very wide range of dragon mythology into a single usable archtype. The eggs have to be small enough for a child to carry, while the end result should be as big as anything ever gets.

Their stats end up like greater dragons (red or gold), but start smaller.

Age		BW Dmg (DC)	Poison		Line/Cone	BAB/Grapple

Wyrmling	2d10 (13)	  1/1d2 Con	 30 / 15	 +4/ -4
Very Young	4d10 (16)	  1/1d4 Con	 40 / 20	 +8/ +6
Young		6d10 (18)	1d2/1d4 Con	 40 / 20	+12/+11
Juvenile	8d10 (20)	1d4/1d6 Con	 60 / 30	+14/+19
Young Adult	10d10 (22)	1d6/1d8 Con	 60 / 30	+18/+24
Adult		12d10 (25)	2d4/2d4 Con	 80 / 40	+22/+35
Mature Adult	14d10 (28)	2d6/2d6 Con	 80 / 40	+26/+36
Old		16d10 (31)	2d8/2d8 Con	100 / 50	+30/+50
Very Old	18d10 (33)	3d6/3d6 Con	100 / 50	+33/+54
Ancient		20d10 (38)	3d8/3d8 Con	120 / 60	+36/+63
Wyrm		22d10 (40)	4d6/4d6 Con	120 / 60	+39/+67
Great Wyrm	24d10 (43)	4d8/4d8 Con	140 / 70	+42/+75

Since breath weapon size is linked to dragon size, and I've linked size to age catagory, we can simplify the annoying dragon-table-mania. Now you can see damage and size in the same table! Woo-hoo! I've included what I think is reasonable poison damage for a dragon whose got a stinger and/or has a poison breath weapon (like the old 1e green dragon, or the grossly overpowered steel dragon).

We can also pre-calculate damage by age catagory:

Age		Bite		Full Attack

Wyrmling	+6 1d4	 	+1 (2 claws 1d3)
Very Young	+11 1d6+2	+6 (2 claws 1d4+1)
Young		+16 1d6+3	+11 (2 claws 1d4+1)
Juvenile	+19 1d8+5	+14 (2 claws 1d6+2, 2 wings 1d4+2)
Young Adult	+23 1d8+6	+18 (2 claws 1d6+3, 2 wings 1d4+3)
Adult		+30 2d6+9	+25 (2 claws 1d8+4, 2 wings 1d6+4, slap 1d8+13)
Mature Adult	+35 2d6+10	+30 (2 claws 1d8+5, 2 wings 1d6+5, slap 1d8+15)
Old		+40 2d8+12	+35 (2 claws 2d6+6, 2 wings 1d8+6, slap 2d6+18, crush 2d8+18)
Very Old	+44 2d8+13	+39 (2 claws 2d6+6, 2 wings 1d8+6, slap 2d6+19, crush 2d8+19)
Ancient		+47 4d6+15	+42 (2 claws 2d8+7, 2 wings 2d6+7, slap 2d8+22, crush 4d6+22, sweep 2d6+22)
Wyrm		+51 4d6+16	+46 (2 claws 2d8+8, 2 wings 2d6+8, slap 2d8+24, crush 4d6+24, sweep 2d6+24)
Great Wyrm	+51 4d8+17	+46 (2 claws 4d6+8, 2 wings 2d8+8, slap 4d6+25, crush 4d8+25, sweep 2d8+25)

(Obviously, a Full Attack would also involve a Bite...)

Age		CL/SR/Fear	Special		 F / R / W	AC / Touch / Flat

Wyrmling	--/--/--	Bloodline	 +5/ +4/ +4	18 (+2 Size, +6 Natural) / 12 / 18
Very Young	--/--/--	Shift Environ	 +8/ +6/ +6	20 (+1 Size, +9 Natural) / 11 / 20
Young		 1/--/--	Alternate Form	+11/ +8/ +9	23 (+1 Size, +12 Natural) / 11 / 23
Juvenile	 3/19/--	DR 5/magic	+13/ +9/+10	25 (+15 Natural) / 10 / 25
Young Adult	 5/21/--	Suggestion 1/d	+15/+11/+12	28 (+18 Natural) / 10 / 28
Adult		 7/23/25	DR 10/magic	+17/+13/+15	30 (+21 Natural, -1 Size) / 9 / 30
Mature Adult	 9/25/28	Suggestion 2/d	+20/+15/+17	33 (+24 Natural, -1 Size) / 9 / 33
Old		11/27/31	DR 15/magic	+22/+17/+20	35 (+27 Natural, -2 Size) / 8 / 35
Very Old	13/28/33	Suggestion 3/d	+25/+18/+22	38 (+30 Natural, -2 Size) / 8 / 38
Ancient		15/30/36	DR 20/magic	+30/+20/+25	39 (+33 Natural, -4 Size) / 6 / 39
Wyrm		17/32/38	Mass Sug. 1/d	+32/+21/+27	42 (+36 Natural, -4 Size) / 6 / 42
Great Wyrm	19/34/41	DR 15/epic	+36/+24/+31	41 (+39 Natural, -8 Size) / 2 / 41

The above lists Caster Level (Sorcerer, of course), Spell Resistance and Frightful Presence DC, then the generic special abilities that every dragon gets. Some are not self-explanatory:

Alternate Form: The dragon picks a single specific humanoid form into which it can shift at will as a standard action. Dragons often pick attractive human or elven forms, but dwarven, gnome and halfling forms are not unknown.

Bloodline: This is the dragon's subtype (Fire, Cold, etc.), which determines its breath weapon and racial energy immunity (and perhaps vulnerability). It might determine even more than that, if you use Hellfire Wyrms or the like.

Shift Environment: At 5 years of age, a dragon can choose to move from one environment to another. When leaving its "native" environment, it loses all environment-granted abilities (see below). When it's lived consistantly in a new environment for one year, it may choose to gain the abilities associated with its new environment, which thereafter becomes its "native" environment.

Age/Environ	Desert		Forest		Mountain	Ocean		Swamp		Ice

Wyrmling	Create Water	Speak w/ Anim.	Spider Climb	Water Breath	Water Breath	Icewalking
Very Young	Destroy Water	
Young		End. Elements	Entangle	Feather Fall	Fog Cloud	Entangle	Fog Cloud
Juvenile											
Young Adult											
Adult												
Mature Adult	Hal. Terrain	Plant Growth	Find the Path	Control Winds	Plant Growth	Freezing Fog
Old												
Very Old	Veil		Tpt. via Plant	Create Food	Control Water	Control Water	Wall of Ice
Ancient												
Wyrm		Mirage Arcana	Command Plants	Move Earth	Control Weather	Command Plants	Control Weather
Great Wyrm

Sorry for the side-scrolling. It's a wide table.


Anyway, the above allows me to create strong dragons for nearly every environment which are faithful to the spirit of the 3.5e color-coded dragons but are hopefully balanced against each other.

Now, assuming I've done an amazing job, and actually balanced these beasties against each other, what would the CR be for each age catagory?

Anyone got a genius system for finding CR? *bats eyebrows at Upper_Krust*

Thanks, -- N

 

[Ferrix]

Well, I've got no good CR system but I can say this is an really cool take on dragons. Only thing I think doesn't make a huge amount of sense is the changing of environment. I'd see the bloodline tied to the environment, thus a red dragon would be bound to a fiery or hot area (desert, volcano, what not), or a white would be bound to an arctic area. You don't see animals shifting and adapting wholly new abilities to an environment in a year and even though they are dragons (amazingly powerful beasties) I don't think they could do it that quick. Though I could see some interesting Dragon Ritual Magic which might allow them to do it. Really cool though.

 

[Nifft]

Well, I've got no good CR system but I can say this is an really cool take on dragons. Only thing I think doesn't make a huge amount of sense is the changing of environment. I'd see the bloodline tied to the environment, thus a red dragon would be bound to a fiery or hot area (desert, volcano, what not), or a white would be bound to an arctic area. You don't see animals shifting and adapting wholly new abilities to an environment in a year and even though they are dragons (amazingly powerful beasties) I don't think they could do it that quick.

Yeah, I'm not down with that. If a winter dragon wants to live in a temperate lake, that's no more insane than a fire dragon wanting to live in an woodland. Volcanos can be anywhere... what about a fire dragon who lives under the sea, in a near-surface volcano? That's certainly Ocean, but it's also appropriate.

I'd rather give "options, not restrictions". DMs can apply their common sense, or sense of whimsy, as appropriate.

Though I could see some interesting Dragon Ritual Magic which might allow them to do it. Really cool though.

Yeah, under the proposed rules that ritual is called "taking a year off". You can flavor what happens in that year as you like... Dragon Rituals or Druidic Atunement or whatever.

-- N

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Looks pretty good to me.

Drop me an email if you'd like to let me borrow it for publication. (With compensation, of course.)


Wulf

 

[Nifft]

Drop me an email if you'd like to let me borrow it for publication.

Wow! I feel honored.

Board won't let me email ("disabled by adminis-traitor"). I can be reached at doctornull@yahoo.com

Any publication would require that I retain full rights for re-publication, since they're a planned part of my eventual campaign setting. What sort of book would you want to include them in?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Ferret]

I don't know if I like the changing abilities, maybe keep (for example only) 'red' dragons as they are, angry and liking to live in mountains, but when they move they change to be more suited to the clime, so redginald the red dragon moves to the frozen arctic he goes white, scales thicken etc. stil. likes to live in mountains, still has it's old abilities. Hows that?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Nifft!

sorry for the delay, I was looking at this thread last night and it just occured to me that you could try and determine the CR from my CR/EL system - which I already posted for people to download.

Or you could use the CR calculator based upon it (not sure if thats finished yet - Wulf probably knows better than me?)

Anyway I gave them a rough going over and it seems like the Wyrmling is about CR 5 and the Great Wyrm CR 71 (I think) so that suggests each age category roughly adds about +6 CR.

If you wanted to convert this to the official (CR) rules you would halve all the numbers.

So start at CR 2 and add +3 per size category. Great Wyrm would be CR 35. While that may seem a bit big it only represents a 50/50 challenge for a party of 4 18th-level characters.

Personally though, while an interesting idea in sub-diversity, I'd like to see someone try and proffer a realistic dragon. I know a lot of people don't agree with me that HD should be representative of mass (for creatures with natural physiognomy) but I wince when I see things like 'tiny' cat sized dragons having as much HD as Ogres.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Not to nitpick or whine, but please, please, please, no Tiny dragons. You've got this wyrmling puttin' the hurt on some PC's, and then they're all "Dang, this thing's powerful, how big is it?" and you're like "Well, um, uh, approximately the size of a housecat." That's bad.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Or you could use the CR calculator based upon it (not sure if thats finished yet - Wulf probably knows better than me?)

Many have tried; none have yet succeeded.

You'll still have to use pencil and paper, for now.


Wulf

 

[Nifft]

Thanks! That's similar to what I'd come up with, though a bit stronger towards the high end... I'd put these guys just about even with Gold Dragons towards the high end, and they go (starting with Gargantuan Ancient Golds) CR 24, 25, 27.

I'll take a look at your PDF and work out the details myself.

Personally though, while an interesting idea in sub-diversity, I'd like to see someone try and proffer a realistic dragon. I know a lot of people don't agree with me that HD should be representative of mass (for creatures with natural physiognomy) but I wince when I see things like 'tiny' cat sized dragons having as much HD as Ogres.

As to "reaslism" -- I guess that depends on your source. I'm currently reading A Clash of Kings, and

Spoiler

Dany's 6-month-old shoulder-sized Wyrmling just killed the Undying Warlocks single-handed -- er, single-clawed

. IMHO, Dragons are raw elemental might bound into a very small physical area -- and this should make the big ones really scary, becuase the area is still proportionately small.

Finally, if you can justify a Halfling Fighter having more HP than an Ogre, I don't see what the big deal of a tiny, tough-as-leather Dragon is. Maybe if it were shifted over to VP/WP, where one crit would put down pretty much any Tiny critter, you'd think it realistic? Then a Dragon could have d12 'vitality' dice, and their WP would scale nicely with their size. I'll add this variant calculation to my table, and you'll have your "realistic dragon", okay?

-- N