Generic Dragon: Help with CR/LA!

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Nifft mate!

Thanks! That's similar to what I'd come up with, though a bit stronger towards the high end... I'd put these guys just about even with Gold Dragons towards the high end, and they go (starting with Gargantuan Ancient Golds) CR 24, 25, 27.

I'll take a look at your PDF and work out the details myself.

Its also got advice at the back for designing monsters.

As to "reaslism" -- I guess that depends on your source. I'm currently reading A Clash of Kings, and

Spoiler

Dany's 6-month-old shoulder-sized Wyrmling just killed the Undying Warlocks single-handed -- er, single-clawed

. IMHO, Dragons are raw elemental might bound into a very small physical area -- and this should make the big ones really scary, becuase the area is still proportionately small.

Well, thats one possible take on dragons but its not representative of the typical D&D dragon which is an intelligent flying reptile.

Finally, if you can justify a Halfling Fighter having more HP than an Ogre, I don't see what the big deal of a tiny, tough-as-leather Dragon is.

Well you can justify it because the Halflings hit points; by way of character levels, are an extension of combat knowledge; rolling with blows; luck and so forth. Whereas Hit Dice are indelibly linked to mass and its raw absorbtion of damage.

Maybe if it were shifted over to VP/WP, where one crit would put down pretty much any Tiny critter, you'd think it realistic?

How many times do you think you would have to hit a cat with a longsword to kill it (by the way if there are any pet lovers out there I don't advocate trying such a heinous act obviously).

Then a Dragon could have d12 'vitality' dice, and their WP would scale nicely with their size. I'll add this variant calculation to my table, and you'll have your "realistic dragon", okay?

I don't like the VP/WP system, so don't go to any trouble on my account mate, though thanks for the offer.

Creatures of Natural Physiognomy would be better served if their size was derived from their Hit Dice (and vice versa). Of course thats just my opinion, but it does make sense.

 

[Nifft]

How many times do you think you would have to hit a cat with a longsword to kill it (by the way if there are any pet lovers out there I don't advocate trying such a heinous act obviously).

Hey U_K!

From 1e on I remember that HP have always come with warning labels that tell you NOT to confuse them with ability to soak up lethal damage -- they're an abstract ability to not die from blows, by lunging to the side or parrying the blade at the last second.

Better question is: how many swings at a housecat would it take before you finally killed it? That's a question that D&D's HP mechanic could model. How many blows when you have a cat held down and helpless? That's the Coup de Grace mechanic, and it's made to bypass HP. All in all, when D&D says "hit", it isn't always "a palpable hit!"

Given that in 3.5e D&D there are many dragons which do start out as Tiny, and that they do have quite a lot of HD for their size (at all sizes), I think I'm being true to the current spirit of the rules.

Creatures of Natural Physiognomy would be better served if their size was derived from their Hit Dice (and vice versa).

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say for the record that IMHO dragons are magical.


John Q. Mayhem: If you think that a Tiny Dragon is evil, throw a Grig Bard at them, or worse yet, a Blightwisp (falllen Lantern Archon -- Tiny sphere of blackness that shoots black rays of Unholy damage and teleports at will). Size only matters sometimes.


Ferret: Your dragons don't sound much like mine, so I don't think my work here will help you. Sorry.

-- N

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well you can justify it because the Halflings hit points; by way of character levels, are an extension of combat knowledge; rolling with blows; luck and so forth.

Dragons don't have combat knowledge, rolling with blows, luck and so forth?

Whereas Hit Dice are indelibly linked to mass and its raw absorbtion of damage.

Says you!

Wulf

 

[Ferret]

Ferret: Your dragons don't sound much like mine, so I don't think my work here will help you. Sorry.

-- N

??

What do you mean? I was suggesting that instead of changing 'what dragon it is' from black to white etc, it just changes appearence.

It seems odd to me that a dragon would change completely, only keeping its name.

 

[Nifft]

What do you mean? I was suggesting that instead of changing 'what dragon it is' from black to white etc, it just changes appearence.

Uh... the only thing my Dragons change is their environment. Not their color, or name, or sub-type, or anything else. Just the few spell-like abilities provided by their "environmental attunement".

So a Fire Dragon attuned to Forest would look just like a Red Dragon, but would have the spell-like abilities listed in Forest instead of Locate Object and so on.

Got it? No change in "what dragon is", instead just change in "how dragon adapts to environment".

-- N

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

From 1e on I remember that HP have always come with warning labels that tell you NOT to confuse them with ability to soak up lethal damage -- they're an abstract ability to not die from blows, by lunging to the side or parrying the blade at the last second.

Better question is: how many swings at a housecat would it take before you finally killed it? That's a question that D&D's HP mechanic could model. How many blows when you have a cat held down and helpless? That's the Coup de Grace mechanic, and it's made to bypass HP. All in all, when D&D says "hit", it isn't always "a palpable hit!"

...and therefore a redundant mechanic (using Occams Razor) given that we already decide whether a blow hits or not using Attack Bonus vs. Armour Class.

Given that in 3.5e D&D there are many dragons which do start out as Tiny, and that they do have quite a lot of HD for their size (at all sizes), I think I'm being true to the current spirit of the rules.

Indeed, you are just as wrong as they are.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say for the record that IMHO dragons are magical.

...and you'd be wrong. They are natural beings within a magical environ. Dragons eat, breathe, sleep, age and poop. They generally conform to the laws of logic (albeit logic-lite).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Dragons don't have combat knowledge, rolling with blows, luck and so forth?

Why can't dragons gain class levels then?

Says you!

I do indeed.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

John Q. Mayhem: If you think that a Tiny Dragon is evil, throw a Grig Bard at them, or worse yet, a Blightwisp (falllen Lantern Archon -- Tiny sphere of blackness that shoots black rays of Unholy damage and teleports at will). Size only matters sometimes.
-- N

Not evil, just silly. Dragons (IMO) should be big. A dragon that can take on a reasonable 2nd-4th level party should be at least human size. Dragons are often used as "boss" monsters, and having your "boss" be the size of a kitten is not menacing. As a matter of fact it's not menacing in many different ways. It is the paragon of silliness. IMO.

 

[Nifft]

Indeed, you are just as wrong as they are.

Yo U_K!

That's exactly as wrong as I want to be! I'm not designing a new game after all. Just a better widgit to fit into the game.

As to HP, if you don't want to use the admittedly "unrealisitic" mechanism, go VP/WP or just use the Injury system in UA. HP are what they are, which is NOT a clean, "realistic" mechanism. They're one of the oldest parts of the game -- they just CAN'T be cleaned up without destroying some of the mental cinema that is D&D.

HOWEVER, my replies notwithstanding, let's make a new thread to discuss what HP really are and how they could be "fixed", please?


John Q. Mayhem: I doubt that a 5 year old Wyrmling is going to be a boss monster. IMC, Dragons try to hide until Adulthood -- when they're old enough to go around killin' stuff by themselves. Dragons have intelligent parents -- where's Mom? Shouldn't she be the Boss Monster? (Or at least Big Sis, if Mom is away being slain by adventurers?)

-- N

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Why can't dragons gain class levels then?

Since when can't they?

I'll add class levels to anything, man.