D&D 5E Geniuses with 5 Int

[Yardiff]

Actually, no. But whatever.

So where are you getting your definition of genius?

 

[Maxperson]

I'll happily admit to the second part....where do you get the first part? "The common usage of words is also supposed to be a focus of 5e". Was that one of the design goals? (Not that the answer is relevant; there were many design goals that people feel strongly were not delivered upon.)

I can't remember if it was a design goal or if the designers came out and said it after release, but over on the D&D forums it was pretty widely accepted because it came from an official source.

 

[Maxperson]

You are conflating narration ("fluff") and mechanical change. It's as simple as that.

Fluff must match the mechanics or it's broken. What you are doing is fluffing a medusa as a creature that turns people into cats, then applying that to the mechanic that turns people into stone and expecting it to work.

Your change to the zone of truth fluff either changes the mechanics, or it's broken because it fails to match them. Either way it doesn't work.

 

[Maxperson]

Speak for yourself!

Heh.

In the typical D&D campaign, how much time actually passes "on stage", where checks are being made and actions declared to which a PC's stats will matter?

Your objection strikes me as similar to the objection against 4e encounter powers, that it makes no sense that a fighter can (say) disarm only a single enemy without a short rest.

Of course that would make no sense as a principle of causation, but that's not what it is. All the encounter power tells us is what happens in the N fights where we saw that fighter in-action, "on screen" as it were.

In those on-screen moments, the player (or the table) can always come up with a reason why the character's genius doesn't shine.

That's not all that I said, though. If the PC example that has his "low int" because of self-doubt, which is what charisma controls has his charisma raised to the point where that self-doubt is no longer an issue, he will still have a 5 int on his sheet, instead of the 18 that should be there. Similarly, if some sort of confidence magic is used on him, it will also fail to restore the 18 int that should be there according to the concept. That's why what Elfcrusher is proposing is best modeled with a large circumstance penalty, rather than the low stat. Remove the thing causing the penalty and the 18 int acts as it ought to, instead the PC now getting a nonsensical -3 still.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, actually, I'll readily admit that. I'm afraid that if I'm restricted to "commonsense" definitions (which is what Maxperson has doggedly insisted is the only possible truth) then that eliminates all sorts of interesting narrative possibilities.

Every single rule in existence eliminates all sorts of interesting narrative possibilities. If you want to avoid that, you need to go to one of those free form roleplay chatrooms where there aren't any rules.

 

[BoldItalic]

Obviously inspired by that other thread, the goal of this thread is to describe characters who are geniuses, but for whatever reason they often fail at tasks that, in game terms, require a dice roll with an Int modifier.

How might you roleplay it?

I'm going to haul this thread back on topoic and ignore posts that argue for the sake of arguing that the question shouldn't have been asked.

Here's a backstory for a genius with an Int of 5:

Merander of Threbes (Male Gnome Wizard-1/Rogue-17), Professor of Logic and founder of the School of Innovative Thought at Sageville University, is a well-known genius. Ask any of the sages who work for him, and they will tell you so and give many examples of world changing discoveries and inventions he has to his credit. He is best admired for breaking 2048-bit encryption with a carefully-balanced clockwork teaspoon.

He has an Int of 5. How does he do it? He gets other people to do his research and solve problems for him, then takes the credit, that's how. Not blatantly, of course. He doesn't even realize he's doing it, but that's how it works.

He has a maxim that he impresses on his students: any idea that can't be explained simply, is wrong. He sets his students difficult problems (DCs up in the low 30s) of the type where finding a solution is hard, but once a solution is found it is easy to see that it is correct. Creating the formula for a new magic item, for example, is hard but it's easy to test it by making one and seeing if it works.

When a student comes to him with a possible solution, he challenges the student to explain it to him in simple terms. He role-plays and pretends to be a genius pretending to have an Int of 5, which isn't difficult for him, and if the student can explain his solution well enough for even him to understand it, it gains his approval. His technique is to say "let me see if I've got this right" and paraphrase the idea, adjusting the paraphrase until the student agrees that it is a correct paraphrase.

He then sends the student away with a new problem while he, the professor, starts to publicize the paraphrase (which is genuinely his own paraphrase) whilst omitting to mention that it wasn't actually his idea that he was paraphrasing.

He's been getting away with it for years.

Now, forumites, you're a brainy lot. Who can explain to me exactly how to balance the clockwork teaspoon?

 

[Yardiff]

Merriam-Webster.

Simple Definition of genius

1 : a very smart or talented person : a person who has a level of talent or intelligence that is very rare or remarkable


2 : a person who is very good at doing something


3 : great natural ability : remarkable talent or intelligence

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's a backstory for a genius with an Int of 5:

Merander of Threbes (Male Gnome Wizard-1/Rogue-17), Professor of Logic and founder of the School of Innovative Thought at Sageville University, is a well-known genius. Ask any of the sages who work for him, and they will tell you so and give many examples of world changing discoveries and inventions he has to his credit. He is best admired for breaking 2048-bit encryption with a carefully-balanced clockwork teaspoon.

He has an Int of 5. How does he do it? He gets other people to do his research and solve problems for him, then takes the credit, that's how. Not blatantly, of course. He doesn't even realize he's doing it, but that's how it works.

He has a maxim that he impresses on his students: any idea that can't be explained simply, is wrong. He sets his students difficult problems (DCs up in the low 30s) of the type where finding a solution is hard, but once a solution is found it is easy to see that it is correct. Creating the formula for a new magic item, for example, is hard but it's easy to test it by making one and seeing if it works.

When a student comes to him with a possible solution, he challenges the student to explain it to him in simple terms. He role-plays and pretends to be a genius pretending to have an Int of 5, which isn't difficult for him, and if the student can explain his solution well enough for even him to understand it, it gains his approval. His technique is to say "let me see if I've got this right" and paraphrase the idea, adjusting the paraphrase until the student agrees that it is a correct paraphrase.

He then sends the student away with a new problem while he, the professor, starts to publicize the paraphrase (which is genuinely his own paraphrase) whilst omitting to mention that it wasn't actually his idea that he was paraphrasing.

He's been getting away with it for years.

How?

An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning.

He will have difficulty remembering the correct paraphrasing of his students (penalty to memory check). He won't be able to reconstruct it via deductive reasoning when he does (penalty to logic & deductive reasoning).

Assuming he somehow actually received an education- as opposed to merely opening his own school like a con-man- how would he pass the tests?

When he teaches, he'll have problems constructing simple syllogisms. Any student who questions a logical argument construction will think circles around him.

Any prolonged shop talk with other professors will soon reveal the truth of his intellectual shortcomings.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Merriam-Webster.

Simple Definition of genius

1 : a very smart or talented person : a person who has a level of talent or intelligence that is very rare or remarkable


2 : a person who is very good at doing something


3 : great natural ability : remarkable talent or intelligence

Contrast with the description of Intelligence in the PHB: "An intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning." "Other intelligence checks: communicate with a creature without using words; estimate the value of a precious item; pull together a disguise to pass as a city guard; forge a document; recall lore about a craft or trade; win a game of skill."

So the question then is, are there reasonable/sensible situations where you would call someone a "genius" when they do not draw on logic, education, memory, or deduction to achieve that status?

I'd argue yes. They're intuitive types; to reference the largely forgettable 2000 film Hollow Man, they don't need "the B and C of it," skipping straight from A to D. Things just make sense to them, without any ability to explain how or why to others. The problem comes in trying to model that within the game--how can you reason well, without being particularly good at logic? I'd explain it as "a very savvy player playing a realistically irrational character." They may or may not be foolish--that's sorta split between Int and Wis--but they have trouble consistently connecting actions to indirect consequences. E.g. most people would simply know that, rationally, you can't go shoot your neighbor's dog if it barks too much, as there are laws and etiquette and such. But a low-Int character might see the bright, clear line of "I have a problem, this is the most direct solution that achieves that end" and simply say LET'S DO IT, then cry, "Why didn't you TELL me killing the neighbor's dog would make them angry?!"

It would be a real tricky thing to pull off, but I think it could be done. Especially if it's a Bard, Rogue, or Knowledge Cleric (or all three) who puts Prof and Expertise into a couple Int skills. +12 to a skill tends to outweigh a -3 from ability scores

There's also, of course, the "Idiot Savant" tack, which would be best represented in 5e as...probably a BG feature. You're terrible at most Intelligence-related activities, but in your narrow range of competence, you are beyond the ken of mortals.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While it is true that "genius" may be applied to exceptional ability in seemingly non-intellectual fields- art, dance, music, cooking, etc.-

...how can you reason well, without being particularly good at logic?

You get into trouble. Even without formal training in logic, to reason well, you need to be able to connect A to B to C in a logical fashion.