D&D 5E Geniuses with 5 Int

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I think "affecting dice rolls" is too narrow. For instance, here's an instance of a mechanical event that doesn't involve dice rolls: I write "Detect Magic" on my list of memorised spells; later on in the game I declare "My guy casts Detect Magic"; now the GM is obliged to tell me something about whatever magic items and effects are able to be perceived by my character.

That's mechanical, but it's not about dice rolling.

Yeah, even as I was writing it I was thinking "this is far too brief of an explanation".

In the example you cited, why would Detect Magic count as affecting dice rolling? Because presumably if magic were detected it would impact dice rolling in the future. Maybe just because you don't need to roll a saving throw because you detected a magical trap. And if there's zero possibility of a connection between the detection of magic and future dice rolls, then maybe it doesn't actually require a mechanical casting of a spell?

Does that make sense? (I'm addressing this specifically to pemerton because he gets what I'm talking about; if that sounded like total BS to you just pretend you're listening to a couple of physicists talk about quantum gravity.)

I also, however, acknowledge that that's esoteric enough that a better working definition is required.

It seems to me that, once we have classified effects that inflict fire damage can set timber structures alight as a house rule, the category of "house rules" has lost whatever analytical utility it may have had.


Not everything that falls exclusively under the rubric of "DM judgment call" is a house rule, right?
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, against orcs there's no change, but against other enemies cold damage might result in different damage, so that would be a mechanical change.

So in my view it would be TOTALLY FINE to say that your fireball did cold damage against the orcs, as long as you don't try to also make it cold damage when you're using it on fire elementals. And honestly I don't really care why you don't, but for the sake of a good story I hope you have a good reason, even it's just "Sorry, it's after March 21nd...I can only cast Ball of Cold in the Winter." (You should probably have another backup story in case this happens again and it *is* winter.)

And if you're a White Dragon Sorcerer then you might want to have an explanation for why your class bonus doesn't work in this one case.

But in all those cases I see the challenge of maintaining the fiction as an *opportunity* to tell good stories, not an argument against allowing a player to narrate this way.

See, I sort of gathered from your posts that you don't view mechanical changes that don't alter the results as house rules. They are, though. Any change to mechanics is a house rule, even if there is a net 0 change to the situation. That change is not the rule as written, so it's a house rule.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I absolutely agree that these aren't definitions or stipulations, but illustrative examples.

They are not examples at all. The rules do not call them illustrations or examples and use the following language.

Strength measures... Intelligence measures... Dexterity measures... There is no "might measure", or "measures this and other things", or "Sometimes measure", or any other language that is not absolute. Strength measures X, period.

The language is absolute and definitive when it comes to what stats represent. In order to view those as examples, you have to ignore the English language.

I think "affecting dice rolls" is too narrow. For instance, here's an instance of a mechanical event that doesn't involve dice rolls: I write "Detect Magic" on my list of memorised spells; later on in the game I declare "My guy casts Detect Magic"; now the GM is obliged to tell me something about whatever magic items and effects are able to be perceived by my character.

Right. With his cards example, those cards become part of casting the sorcerer's spells. They are now spell components which are mechanical, as well as stopping his mechanical spellcasting if those cards are taken from him. His sorcerer alteration is not a fluff change, or at least not entirely a fluff change.

It seems to me that, once we have classified effects that inflict fire damage can set timber structures alight as a house rule, the category of "house rules" has lost whatever analytical utility it may have had.

By the same lights, inflicting a penalty on a reaction check because a player declares that his/her PC greets the NPCs with an insult about the circumstances of their births is going to count as a house rule. Likewise deciding that if a sack has a hole in it, then gold pieces put into it will fall out. Etc.
RAW has only one possible definition. Rules as WRITTEN. If it's not written, it's not RAW. Call it a ruling, house rule, or whatever, but it's not RAW for a fireball to set things on fire.

Also, your second example doesn't work. The rules allow the DM to set circumstance bonuses or penalties. ;)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Does that make sense? (I'm addressing this specifically to pemerton because he gets what I'm talking about; if that sounded like total BS to you just pretend you're listening to a couple of physicists talk about quantum gravity.)

LOL That reminds me of an article I read once where two homeless men got arrested for getting into a fist fight. After being questioned, it turns out that they were arguing over quantum physics when it turned physical.
 

pemerton

Legend
Yeah, even as I was writing it I was thinking "this is far too brief of an explanation".

In the example you cited, why would Detect Magic count as affecting dice rolling? Because presumably if magic were detected it would impact dice rolling in the future. Maybe just because you don't need to roll a saving throw because you detected a magical trap. And if there's zero possibility of a connection between the detection of magic and future dice rolls, then maybe it doesn't actually require a mechanical casting of a spell?
I don't think that's an absurd way to go, but it's not the way that I would go.

Ron Edwards, following Jonathan Tweet, classifies resolution systems into fortune, karma and drama. I think you are focusing on fortune to the exclusion of the other modes. (D&D spell casting is a mixture of karma - spell slots, for instance - and drama - when I cast the Detect Magic spell, the GM comes under an obligation to tell me certain stuff.) When I think about mechanics, I tend to think about the (more-or-less) binding processes for establishing the consequences of a player's action declaration for his/her PC. (There's also systems for character building, world building, etc, but they're not relevant to the ZoT issue.)

Because that's somewhat vague, that means the boundaries of "what's mechanics" is not clear-cut. Is it a mechanical thing that, if the GM has narrated "The house is made of timber" and I then state "My guy fireballs the house", the GM has to at least think about whether or not the house catches alight? Until you tell me what's at stake in answering one way or the other, I'm not sure that I care all that much.

In the case of ZoT, I think that the narration needed to make 5 INT Eloelle work is (obviously) non-standard. It requires drawing a distinction between at-the-table effects (What knowledge does Eloelle's player have access to? and Does Eloelle's player have freedom of action declaration - if the save is failed, then no, s/he doesn't!) and in-fiction states of affairs (What does Eloelle know? and Is Eloelle's mind controlled by the magic?) which the spell description doesn't itself draw.

Is that change in narration a mechanical change? I'm not sure what's at stake in answering one way or another. Clearly the Eloelle narration changes the shared fiction. That might be relevant to action declarations and framed scenes down the track (eg we might hope for some sort of big reveal about the patron's plans for Eloelle). What happens if Eloelle's PC gets an INT-boost item (say a Gem of Insight or a Tome of Clear Thought, to use the old AD&D item names)? Does this free her to some extent from the domination of her patron (given the names of those items, that doesn't seem an inappropriate outcome!)?

Does the Eloelle narration "break the game", or give a player an undue advantage? I can't see that either. The decision about whether to permit it or not strikes me as overwhelmingly an aethetic one. The ZoT problem is obviously an edge case; and there might be others. But if a group is into this sort of non-standard narrations, I think the edge cases are hardly going to be more than modest speed humps. They're not going to derail anything.

Not everything that falls exclusively under the rubric of "DM judgment call" is a house rule, right?
I want to say obviously not!

RAW has only one possible definition. Rules as WRITTEN. If it's not written, it's not RAW. Call it a ruling, house rule, or whatever, but it's not RAW for a fireball to set things on fire.
The problem with this is that no set of rules covers all the cases it has to when taken strictly literally, with no entailment or extrapolation permitted.

Some of the entailments are obvious and uncontentious (eg the rules tell us that recovering 1 hp takes 1 day of rest; and so we extrapolate that if my PC is 7 hp down that wil take a week of rest to recover).

Some of the entailments are more contentious. For instance, the rules tell us that alchemist's fire, burning oil and a lighted torch all do fire damage (SRD pp 66, 68), and also tell us (under the heading "Damage Types -") that "Red dragons breathe fire, and many spells conjure flames to deal fire damage" (SRD p 97). This seems to me to support extrapolation to "fire damage is the result of being burned by flames". It is pretty uncontentious that flames can set timber structures alight. Hence, I see an extrapolation to "fire damage can set timber structures alight". The extrapolations here are weaker than strict entailment, but they're much stronger than mere conjecture, or mere permissible selection from a range of feasible alternatives.

Is that a departure from RAW, or a "ruling", in the way that the 1 week's healing to recover 7 hp is not? Again, until someone tells me what's at stake in the distinction, I'm not going to express a view.

They are not examples at all. The rules do not call them illustrations or examples and use the following language.

Strength measures... Intelligence measures... Dexterity measures... There is no "might measure", or "measures this and other things", or "Sometimes measure", or any other language that is not absolute. Strength measures X, period.
They're instances of the things that the stats might measure. Nothing suggests that they are exhaustive. They're barely even canonical, given that the items on the list changes from occurrence to occurrence. Just sticking to INT, the SRD on p 76 tells us that INT "measur[es] reasoning and memory", and then on p 81 tells us that INT "measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason", and then on the same page tells us that "An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning."

What is the relationship between mental acuity, which appears on only one of those lists, and the other components of INT? What about inductive or scientific reasoning, which isn't mentioned at all? Is that included under reasoning ability? But then why specifically call out logic and deductive reasoning?

As I said, these formulations aren't even canonical, let alone exhaustive.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
If it exclusively falls under "DM judgement call" then yes its a house rule as it could be very different at other tables.

It's only a "rule" if it gets applied as a rule.

"Fireballs always ignite flammable objects within their area of effect" is a house rule.

"Your fireball ignites the curtains" is a ruling, not a house rule.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
They are not examples at all. The rules do not call them illustrations or examples and use the following language.

Strength measures... Intelligence measures... Dexterity measures... There is no "might measure", or "measures this and other things", or "Sometimes measure", or any other language that is not absolute. Strength measures X, period.

The language is absolute and definitive when it comes to what stats represent.

An implication of this claim is that anything...anything...that is not explicitly listed for some ability or skill cannot be used. Because if the lists aren't examples but are definitive, anything not in the lists is excluded.

I'm imagining this conversation:
"How far is it from here to the tower?"
"You don't know."
"Yeah but can I estimate?"
"Um...I don't see 'estimate distances' under Intelligence, or Wisdom, or Survival...so no, you can't."

That's the literal application of what you just claimed above.
 

BoldItalic

First Post
Another genius with a low Int

Gen. Butcher frowned. His head wound still bothered him. He surveyed the campaign table before him and wondered what it was. He felt sure it was important but couldn't remember why. Besides, it looked wrong. The pink was too heavy. Yes, that was it. He moved some flags around. That was better.

At his side, a man coughed. The general looked round and stared at the man. He looked vaguely familiar but he couldn't remember why.

"Prenthorpe, sir," said the man helpfully, "I'm your aide-de-camp."

"Ah. Yes. Very good. Carry on."

Prenthorpe indicated the flags that his general had just moved. "You are redeploying the XIVth Heavy Cavalry into the northern forest?"

"I am?"

"Very good, sir, I'll send out the orders straight away."

Later that day, Gen. Aargh of the Brown Hordes surveyed the tattered remnants of his army as they fled the battlefield. His masterplan had crumbled before his eyes. His feint to the south had met with surprisingly little resistance, while his main force, advancing stealthily through the northern forest, had been cut to ribbons by sabre-wielding heavy horsemen hiding in the trees. It made no sense. They shouldn't have been there. No-one deploys heavy cavalry in a forest !

A circle of subordinates circled Aargh, surveying him with mixed feelings and each other with distinctly unmixed feelings. There was about to be a vacancy for general and each and every one of them wanted it.

"My comrades," began Aargh, "There is no shame in this defeat. The gods were against us. After our previous defeat at Broken Mountain, I though I had the measure of Butcher. But I was wrong. The man is a military genius. I have sent emissaries offering an honourable surrender."

The next thing he said was his last. He called out his own name as he toppled backwards. "Aargh!"
 
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BoldItalic

First Post
An implication of this claim is that anything...anything...that is not explicitly listed for some ability or skill cannot be used. Because if the lists aren't examples but are definitive, anything not in the lists is excluded.
I can't find anything in the books that says, explicitly, that the rules are absolute. Therefore, by Maxperson's argument, they are not.

Which leaves with the position that what is written in the books is descriptive and not prescriptive.

Which we already knew anyway.

:D
 

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