Genre Discussion: Cyberpunk

[Cergorach]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

 

[Scribe]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

Have you read CY_BORG? If so, thoughts on its take of cyberpunk?

(This goes for everyone.)

 

[Reynard]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

 

[Ryujin]

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

I will only accept SciFi that involves people getting loaded into cannons and shot at the moon!

 

[Cergorach]

I've been thinking about your post, any theories as to why cyberpunk games don't scratch any itch for you? When I was younger, most of the cyberpunk games I played in followed a pattern very similar to D&D.

1. Do job/quest.
2. Make money.
3. Buy better equipment/skills.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 as necessary.

Which doesn't really provide for a satisfactory arc.

When playing Shadowrun, between step 1 and 2, there would be an additional step: Getting F-ed over by someone. This often resulted in step 2 either disappearing and step 3 often resulting in getting worse equipment... And the someone wasn't other players!

Have you read CY_BORG? If so, thoughts on its take of cyberpunk?

(This goes for everyone.)

Not yet, but I have it laying around somewhere in pdf (from two Bundles of Holding), will read that later this week. I did browse through it, but like most BORG products it often seems like you're viewing a metal art display, CY_BORG added neon colors to it, so I wasn't exactly sure what I was looking at. It looked cool, but if there was any text the pink neon might have burned out my retinas...

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

At what point does evolving become something else entirely? Within art movements art evolved into different streams, baroque didn't become baroque 4, it became impressionism...

Having cyberware in your setting doesn't make something cyberpunk, when the punk part is missing. Or when something is punk, but has no cyber, it's something else. Sometimes a part of something is there but has been there for so long, it isn't relevant anymore. Such as cyberware in generic sci-fi, even if there are big nasty corporations. Would you designate The Expanse as cyberpunk, if not what as? Steampunk is something else entirely from cyberpunk. And a guy on a Horse in modern western America with a couple of six-shooters doesn't make a western.

 

[MGibster]

When playing Shadowrun, between step 1 and 2, there would be an additional step: Getting F-ed over by someone. This often resulted in step 2 either disappearing and step 3 often resulting in getting worse equipment... And the someone wasn't other players!

Because of Shadowrun, I've never had a Mr. Johnson or a Fixer betray the party. Don't get me wrong, I've added "unexpected" complications to a run, but I've never created a scenario where Mr. Johnson deliberately betrays the high trained, well equipped group of malcontents with negotiable morals.

One problem I noticed especially in Shadowrun (1st edition) was how impossible it seemed to make a profit as a runner. By the time my character paid for ammunition, additional equipment, and medical care, I was oftentimes in the red. My character might have been better off boosting cars or setting up a chop shop. This problem is particularly noticeable in Cyberpunk Red.

 

[Reynard]

Because I generally don't run published adventures, I don't care about them as genre definers. Adventure writers are beholden to the widest possible audience and therefore usually default to D&D nonsense even when writing for other games. I remember one developer I worked for having to fire a well known industry designer because they could not hand in anything else.

Trust the core book. That's the vision of the game. Literally everything that comes after is suspect unless it is written and designed by the same team, and even then it could well be mercenary.