Genre Discussion: Cyberpunk

[Cergorach]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

 

[Scribe]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

Have you read CY_BORG? If so, thoughts on its take of cyberpunk?

(This goes for everyone.)

 

[Reynard]

I haven't watched Westworld S3 and Arcane yet, so can't say. But what I did see from Arcane while browsing: It didn't look cyberpunk...

Of course I watched the old movies like Bladerunner, Johny Menomic (or however the heck you write that!), Robocop, Running Man, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. Certain comics/graphic novels, including the Ghost in the Shell ones. Was a fan of Shadowrun 1e when it came out, I was a fan of 1st/2nd/3rd edition, but they lost me with 4th+. I really liked how they added on fantasy on top of cyberpunk, but for me it always was cyberpunk first, fantasy second. I personally feel that 4e+ (and maybe even certain later stage 3e products) switched that balance around, making it fantasy first and cyberpunk second.

The original Ghost in the Shell was great for it's time, but later I preferred Stand Alone Complex over the orignal anime movie, the live action movie was entertaining, but not really what I was looking for. I read Altered Carbon before it became a series, and I also loved the series, I was very disappointed when the stopped after S2. There's lots of anime and novels that touch cyberpunk, but very few that go to the levels of pure cyberpunk.

What I'm seeing more with more modern attempts at cyberpunk, including the most recent editions of Shadowrun, they feel less like cyberpunk and more like 'nanorave'. Taking some core concepts, modernize it, but loosing something essential in the process, while creating something new. I have less of an issue with something new, but when companies do this with an existing cyberpunk ip, I find it a LOT less desirable.

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

 

[Ryujin]

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

I will only accept SciFi that involves people getting loaded into cannons and shot at the moon!

 

[Cergorach]

I've been thinking about your post, any theories as to why cyberpunk games don't scratch any itch for you? When I was younger, most of the cyberpunk games I played in followed a pattern very similar to D&D.

1. Do job/quest.
2. Make money.
3. Buy better equipment/skills.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 as necessary.

Which doesn't really provide for a satisfactory arc.

When playing Shadowrun, between step 1 and 2, there would be an additional step: Getting F-ed over by someone. This often resulted in step 2 either disappearing and step 3 often resulting in getting worse equipment... And the someone wasn't other players!

Have you read CY_BORG? If so, thoughts on its take of cyberpunk?

(This goes for everyone.)

Not yet, but I have it laying around somewhere in pdf (from two Bundles of Holding), will read that later this week. I did browse through it, but like most BORG products it often seems like you're viewing a metal art display, CY_BORG added neon colors to it, so I wasn't exactly sure what I was looking at. It looked cool, but if there was any text the pink neon might have burned out my retinas...

Themes and genres evolve and its seems a waste to only consider the early work "pure."

At what point does evolving become something else entirely? Within art movements art evolved into different streams, baroque didn't become baroque 4, it became impressionism...

Having cyberware in your setting doesn't make something cyberpunk, when the punk part is missing. Or when something is punk, but has no cyber, it's something else. Sometimes a part of something is there but has been there for so long, it isn't relevant anymore. Such as cyberware in generic sci-fi, even if there are big nasty corporations. Would you designate The Expanse as cyberpunk, if not what as? Steampunk is something else entirely from cyberpunk. And a guy on a Horse in modern western America with a couple of six-shooters doesn't make a western.

 

[MGibster]

When playing Shadowrun, between step 1 and 2, there would be an additional step: Getting F-ed over by someone. This often resulted in step 2 either disappearing and step 3 often resulting in getting worse equipment... And the someone wasn't other players!

Because of Shadowrun, I've never had a Mr. Johnson or a Fixer betray the party. Don't get me wrong, I've added "unexpected" complications to a run, but I've never created a scenario where Mr. Johnson deliberately betrays the high trained, well equipped group of malcontents with negotiable morals.

One problem I noticed especially in Shadowrun (1st edition) was how impossible it seemed to make a profit as a runner. By the time my character paid for ammunition, additional equipment, and medical care, I was oftentimes in the red. My character might have been better off boosting cars or setting up a chop shop. This problem is particularly noticeable in Cyberpunk Red.

 

[Reynard]

Because I generally don't run published adventures, I don't care about them as genre definers. Adventure writers are beholden to the widest possible audience and therefore usually default to D&D nonsense even when writing for other games. I remember one developer I worked for having to fire a well known industry designer because they could not hand in anything else.

Trust the core book. That's the vision of the game. Literally everything that comes after is suspect unless it is written and designed by the same team, and even then it could well be mercenary.

 

[Cergorach]

Trust the core book. That's the vision of the game. Literally everything that comes after is suspect unless it is written and designed by the same team, and even then it could well be mercenary.

Would that include new editions? Because those are either not written by the original authors, include advances in technology and metaplot, etc. Possibly making it a new beast. And even if it's written by the same people years later, those people might also have changed...

I don't think you're wrong. But sometimes parts of the vision of the game are great, but parts are poorly executed... I just watched an hour long video (Quinns Quest) reviewing Triangle Agency!... Something could be awesome, but thoroughly flawed or even unplayable (for most).

The old Cyberpunk RPG (2013/2020) looked awesome, had some cool ideas, never played it. Most of the Palladium stuff looked and sounded awesome, the system not so much, and let's not start about the personality that created it being a bane on the Net when someone tried to make their game playable (I often wonder if the Games Workshop started taking queues from the Paladium legal team)... SR1 I maybe played once before SR2 came out and the game became a little bit more playable, maybe it lost a bit of it's charm, but not much (and I only realize that now that you mentioned the core book vision thing). But what does a game's charm matter is it's nigh unplayable?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Trust the core book. That's the vision of the game. Literally everything that comes after is suspect unless it is written and designed by the same team, and even then it could well be mercenary

Nonsense, that’s assigning a godlike level of competence and altruism to the original creators.

The only thing you should trust is your own judgement. Use what you like, by whoever you like, and discard anything you don’t like, even if it was part of the original authors vision. They are a person just like you, their judgment is no better than yours or anyone else’s.

 

[Scribe]

Nonsense, that’s assigning a godlike level of competence and altruism to the original creators.

The only thing you should trust is your own judgement. Use what you like, by whoever you like, and discard anything you don’t like, even if it was part of the original authors vision. They are a person just like you, their judgment is no better than yours or anyone else’s.

Those who wrote the core book likely have access to data and assumptions that may not be public.

If a system even pretends to have balance, that data will play a part in design.

As such it makes way more sense to trust the core book, than some random, or even ourselves if we are trying to align with the core.