Gestalt and ECL

[Corbert]

OK, I think I've seen this before, but can't find it and don't remember the details, so I need help. I'm running a gestalt campaign right now, and a player wants to make a Fire Giant/Fighter Weretiger. Using Savage Species he can build Fire Giant on one 'side' of the gestalt, but since Weretiger isn't built as a class progression does the ECL apply to both sides of the gestalt, or to just one side?

 

[Rabelais]

I'm pretty sure Were(Beast) is a leveled progression as well. Not sure how many levels though... The Were template would be the other half of the Gestalt.

ie. Fire Giant/ Were Template

 

[Enchelion Derabdur]

rabelais is right.

Templates add their LA to only one side of a Gestalt character.

I do feel liek I should caution you, I've been runnung a Gestalt campaign for ~2 years now. Savage Species classes can throw a wrench into the gears of the Gestalt system. Savage Species classes have a reduced HD progression to account for the imbalance of abilities to HD inherent to monsters. When Gestalted, some of that penalty is reduced... THough since he is taking a Template... That may not be as much as a problem.

Anyways, it's your campaign... Just a heads-up.

 

[Thanee]

rabelais is right.

Templates add their LA to only one side of a Gestalt character.

Where did you get this from?

Actually, this cannot be answered that simply, because the Gestalt rules, AFAIK, do not specify how this is done.

IMHO, LA should be used equally on both sides of the Gestalt. On a case-by-case basis, one might allow it to only take up one side, but the general rule should be the other way around.

The problem is, that if you take something with very high LA, for example, then you might end up with something like this:

RACE|LA
RACE|LA
RACE|LA
CLASS|LA
CLASS|LA
CLASS|LA

Is this really a 6th-level Gestalt character? No! It's a 12th-level character, you only cut the 'cost' in half. It's like stacking six levels of Wizard with six levels of a Wizard Prestige Class to give caster level 12th, something that Gestalt is specifically not doing.

Gestalt progressions should not stack in such a way, they should *overlap*. LA doesn't overlap with anything, usually, it only adds stuff *on top* of the regular progression.

That's why LA should normally take up both sides of the Gestalt.

Bye
Thanee

 

[gabrion]

Thanee has the right of this one.

Gestalt is meant to give a character more options, but it points out that these characters aren't twice as powerful because they are still limited by how much they can do in any given round. Abilities gained from LA tend to enhance characters' abilities rather than provide more of them, thus making them much closer to the 2x as powerful rather than 2x as versatile.

To be fair though, this problem can come up in gestalt games even without introducing LA races. Players who choose class and PrC levels that synergize and augment one other rather than just giving different sets of abilities will also be considerably more powerful. The bottom line is that if you're running a gestalt game, stay on top of it and make decisions as a DM that you think will make the game run best.

 

[Zimri]

Is this really a 6th-level Gestalt character? No! It's a 12th-level character, you only cut the 'cost' in half. It's like stacking six levels of Wizard with six levels of a Wizard Prestige Class to give caster level 12th, something that Gestalt is specifically not doing.

Gestalt progressions should not stack in such a way, they should *overlap*. LA doesn't overlap with anything, usually, it only adds stuff *on top* of the regular progression.

I thought most caster PrC listed spell progression as something akin to "+1 level of existing spell casting progression"

I also thought Gestalt allowed one to "pick the better of the two options presented" for example "hey my monk progression doesn't get a BaB increase this round but the fighter does so I still go up one" (yes I know there are formula out there for a more consistent bab increase)

So to my mind having 1 level of wizard and one level of a wizard PrC would result in a choice between ummmm going up one level of casting ability or going up one level of casting ability.

Or does my BaB really go up 1.75 points a level and do I add both increases to saves rather than picking one ?

 

[ElectricDragon]

Don't know if this will help; but there is a Weretiger template class http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a on wizard's site.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Fieari]

I wouldn't say LA takes up both sides of the gestalt, but I wouldn't let the LA cover the racial HD.

Instead of

RACE|LA
RACE|LA
RACE|LA
CLASS|LA
CLASS|LA
CLASS|LA

It would be

RACE|CLASS
RACE|CLASS
RACE|CLASS
LA|CLASS
LA|CLASS
LA|CLASS
LA|CLASS
LA|CLASS
LA|CLASS

 

[Thanee]

So to my mind having 1 level of wizard and one level of a wizard PrC would result in a choice between ummmm going up one level of casting ability or going up one level of casting ability.

Yes, that's how it works.

What I meant is, that allowing LA on one side of the Gestalt is like having it work that way (both sides stacking), not that it actually does so.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I wouldn't say LA takes up both sides of the gestalt, but I wouldn't let the LA cover the racial HD.

That's no big difference. It's still the same problem.

The racial HD are not the problem, those are fine as one side of a Gestalt, since they are 'like' a class. LA is not. LA is a shift in power that applies to the character as a whole.

Bye
Thanee