D&D 4E Gestalt Characters, 4E Style

[ff6shadow]

I wonder if I can convince my group to try this out. Seems like a lot of fun.

 

[tiornys]

Now that I've thought about it more, and seen Khaalis' exploration of further multiclassing into your templated class, I think multiclassing into a third class might be workable. However, I think you'd have to swap powers only from your base class. That would help avoid problems like PrecociousApprentice's Swordmage/Warlord/Wizard who had only one at-will power as a warlord. I'd even allow paragon multiclassing into the third class. The power breakdown winds up pretty close to even across all three classes.

Speaking of power breakdowns, I don't really like multiclassing into your templated class. You can get essentially the same power breakdown by simply switching which class you have as your base class and which is your templated class, which seems a lot cleaner to me.

t~

 

[Khaalis]

Speaking of power breakdowns, I don't really like multiclassing into your templated class. You can get essentially the same power breakdown by simply switching which class you have as your base class and which is your templated class, which seems a lot cleaner to me.
t~

What MCing into the Template allows is the "Choice" of how far into it you get beyond the basic template. You can choose to take or not to take the MC feats.

As to switching which class is "base" vs. "template" - what happens to your Base Class Features? By switching your base class, you alter a LOT more than simply which class is granting more powers than the other.

Just a thought...

 

[tiornys]

What MCing into the Template allows is the "Choice" of how far into it you get beyond the basic template. You can choose to take or not to take the MC feats.

Hmm, this is true. Maybe it'd be ok then.

As to switching which class is "base" vs. "template" - what happens to your Base Class Features? By switching your base class, you alter a LOT more than simply which class is granting more powers than the other.

Just a thought...

Actually you don't alter very much other than powers. The elite templates grant all weapon and armor proficiencies, all class features, normal saving throw bonuses, and two skills, so the only things you effectively alter are base HP, number of healing surges, and how many powers you get from each class. (edit: this comment is talking about what changes when you switch your base class with your templated class.)

t~

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

The elite templates grant all weapon and armor proficiencies, all class features, normal saving throw bonuses, and two skills, so the only things you effectively alter are base HP, number of healing surges, and how many powers you get from each class.

Healing surges aren't added with a template. The rest is true.

This may be funny to say considering that we are discussing things way beyond the orthodox 4e rules, but these areas that you mention right here are where significant powergaming might come into play. If you can buid a character with the same powers, same class abilities, but you have higher HP, then why not? There seems like there should be a tradeoff.

I like the idea of having three classes in 3.x, but I am unsure that I like it for 4e. Kinda sets you up to be a Mary Sue. The ability to multiclass only into your template class is kinda cool though. You don't open any more multiclass combinations than core, you lose some of the wonkiness of core multiclassing like only ranger base classes can go into ranger PPs, and it allows you to fine tune your degree of multiclassing a little.

If you were to toss out the extra HPs, the extra AP, and the save bonus you gain from the template class you could end up with the core 4e feel of a fighter/rogue is different than a rogue/fighter, and the power level would obviously be higher than core, but not as much as just templating a PC. This seems like it would be a very effective multiclass patch.

So if you restrict multiclassing to the template class, you get three levels of multiclassing.

The Single Class Specialist. This guy goes Base Class with a template in the same class as the Base Class. He ends up with extra powers in his class and is able to choose two of the class ability options, for example both as a Feylock and a Starlock. No point in getting the multiclass feats. Extra oomph for a single class character and makes them still viable as PCs in the face of all the multiclass options. You up the power level by one class ability option and an at-will, and encounter, a utility, and a daily power.

The Dipper. This guy goes Base Class with a different template than his Base Class. He gets some the skills, defenses, proficiencies, and class abilities of the template class, but only enough powers from the template to function. By not taking the multiclass feats, this character keeps his main focus on the base class while allowing him to step into the role of the template when needed. I think that this is mostly what people wanted in a multiclass system.

The True Multiclass. This character goes Base Class with a different template than his base class, then multiclasses into the themplate class. He can pretty much go even split on the powers, gets the benefits of both classes, but he has traded deeper specialization in either class for the flexibility of both. Not bad. Not sure how this will compare with the Dipper and the Specialist power wise. Most of the really broken combos only require a dip anyway, so this might be the weakest choice.

There I go again, sounding like a pundit and not providing much substance.

 

[Khaalis]

What I am currently looking at for this involves a template designed as follows (slightly different from the DMG class template).


CLASS -- Role
* Power Source
* Key Abilities
* Armor Proficiencies
* Weapon Proficiencies
* Implement -- When appropriate
* Bonus to Defense
* Trained Skill
* Class Features


I don't like the idea of changing Hit Points and Healing Surges. This should be a core function of choosing your "Primary Class".

Now this style of template is easy to apply when the class choices differ.

However, the real problem I am finding with this option is if one is allowing a PC to "Stack" a class choice, such as Fighter/Fighter. Some classes seems to come out far better off "specialized" than others.

We would need to decide just how to "Stack" the same class benefits for each class. A lot of these don't seem to work. For example...

Examples...


FIGHTER:

-- How do you stack Combat Challenge? There really isn't anything here to stack. However, to be fair, it needs to improve somehow.
* Grant a +1 bonus to the Opportunity Attack?

-- How do you stack Combat Superiority?
* Grant a +1 bonus to the Opportunity Attack?

-- How do you stack Weapon Talent?
* +1 attack bonus to both one-handed and two-handed weapons
* +2 attack bonus to one or the other (choose at 1st)
* Choose between the two options


ROGUE:

-- How do you stack First Strike?
* Grant a +1 bonus to a first strike attack?
* Grant a +1 initiative bonus?

-- How do you stack Rogue Tactics?
* Grant a +1 bonus to the AC bonus of Artful Dodger?
* Grant a +1 bonus to the Sneak Attack damage of Brutal Scoundrel?
* Allow them to be both Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel?

-- How do you stack Rogue Weapon Talent?
* Grant a +1 bonus to the damage of Shuriken?
* Grant a +1 bonus to the Attack roll with daggers?
* Grant a +1 damage with daggers?
* Any / all of the above?

-- How do you stack Sneak Attack?
* Grant a flat bonus to the damage of Sneak Attack?
* Grant a bonus to attacks with Sneak Attack?
* Stack the damage dice to +4d6?
* Improved the damage dice to +3d6?


I'm curious for people's thoughts on how to stack "Same Class" class features.

 

[tiornys]

Just making a quick post before I go to bed, so I haven't looked at the posts in depth, but I'm pretty sure multiple people have misunderstood what I said above. When I stated

Actually you don't alter very much other than powers. The elite templates grant all weapon and armor proficiencies, all class features, normal saving throw bonuses, and two skills, so the only things you effectively alter are base HP, number of healing surges, and how many powers you get from each class.

I was referring to what changed when you switched the base class. To clarify:

From your base class you get

• Hit points
• Healing Surges
• Normal Skills
• All normal powers

From your template class you get

• Two skills
• One each of at-will power, encounter power, daily power, and utility power
• An extra encounter and utility power at paragon tier
• An extra daily and utility power at epic tier
• Bonus hit points that I think are identical for all templates except Wizard

From both classes you get

• Class features
• Weapon and armor proficiencies
• Defense bonuses

(the template also adds a saving throw bonus and an action point)
So, some of the suggestions made either aren't necessary or should be reevaluated. There's more cost to switching your base class than just altering your hit points.

The point I was attempting to make was that fully multiclassing into your templated class has almost the same effect as switching your base class with your template class, with the exceptions of a) hit points and healing surges, b) a power here or there, and c) the cost of 4 feats.

t~