Gestalt characters in a normal game

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Kahuna Burger makes a good point. Each Gestalt character has to be evaluated individually. A Fti/Rgr Gestalt definately isn't LA+3. It's not all that much more powerful than either of the base classes. Rgr/Wiz, Sor/Brb, and Rog/Clr on the other hand, blow conventional characters out of the water.

 

[RuminDange]

Before UE came out I had Rogue/Wizard Gesalt type character that followed the progression of Rogue but starting getting spells at 4th level with a caster level of 1/2 rogue level. This NPC was rescued from a mirror of life trapping where he and a partner had been trapped for 2000+ yrs. They came from a time when things in the world was a lot different and they had been trained by the Guild secretly run by the Temple of the god of magic to recover magical artifacts, items, books and stuff from places where they were horded and not used. I applied no Level adjustment or ECL to these characters and it has worked out just fine. They are behind the party in level currently (PC are avg 35th, this one is 33rd currently.)
So far it works out fine since his spells are more limited in ability and effect and he doesn't use a lot of evocations or flashy stuff. Most of the PC's don't even now he can cast spells as he doesn't advertise it, part of the training. They just think he is very good and getting rid of magical traps and iding magic.
Also having the spells doesn't effect using the character since he can't do both in a round and normally wears some form of armor that hinders spellcasting.
If I was to apply a modifier it would be no more than a +1 as you can't be both each round.

RD

P.S. and yes if a player wanted something like this and had a good suggestion or reason I would probably allow it. I run a very high level, high magic campaign and the party is normally challenged by things above thier level when together. But then again, things 1/3 thier level tend to cause them grief.

 

[Bad DM]

After reading the UA, and considering Monte Cook's work on AU, I reach the following conclusion: since a gestalt character is basically able to handle twice as much with regard to encounters/challenges for a gestalt character should be twice as hard as they would be normally. Ergo, the level adjustment for a gestalt character would be equal to the average of his/her two class levels (e.g. a 4th level gestalt character would have an LA of +4, a 16th level gestalt character would have an LA of +16). As he/she gets more powerful, so do the challenges - as it was meant to be. For a party of characters, just average out the LA. As for one type of gestalt combo being more powerful than the next, if all classes are presumed balanced to begin with, this is not really possible, is it? The DM is the one responsible for handling in-game situational balance on a case by case basis. Just letting a gestalt PC get away with a one-time LA pay-off is ultimately damaging to the game as a whole (unless its a munchkin/monty haul campaign, in which case, who cares, really?).

At least, that's my opinion...

 

[Impeesa]

Bad DM - the thing about that is, you're not getting double the HD, saves, BAB, or skill points. Your chances of having a good progression in each of those are better than with a normal character, but the only thing you're really getting double of is class features. Since the balance equation depends on HD/saves/BAB/skills and class features together, you can't strip out just the class features and equate them to each other between classes. At most, I'd say their ECL is something like level * 1.5... double is way too much.

--Impeesa--

 

[kamosa]

After reading the UA, and considering Monte Cook's work on AU, I reach the following conclusion: since a gestalt character is basically able to handle twice as much with regard to encounters/challenges for a gestalt character should be twice as hard as they would be normally. Ergo, the level adjustment for a gestalt character would be equal to the average of his/her two class levels (e.g. a 4th level gestalt character would have an LA of +4, a 16th level gestalt character would have an LA of +16). As he/she gets more powerful, so do the challenges - as it was meant to be. For a party of characters, just average out the LA. As for one type of gestalt combo being more powerful than the next, if all classes are presumed balanced to begin with, this is not really possible, is it? The DM is the one responsible for handling in-game situational balance on a case by case basis. Just letting a gestalt PC get away with a one-time LA pay-off is ultimately damaging to the game as a whole (unless its a munchkin/monty haul campaign, in which case, who cares, really?).

At least, that's my opinion...

Then why not just play a normal multiclass character. IE a 5th level Gestault with a +5 is exactly the same as a multiclass character with 5 levels in each class. While this works for rogue and fighter types, it doesn't work for multiclassing spell casters.

A 10th level mage is way more powerful than a 5/5 mage/cleric. The multiclass levels just don't stack as effectively for spell casters as they do for Fighters and rogues. Gestault characters are a way to address this, but making it a +1 LA for each level of Gestault just puts you back into the problem they were designed to solve.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

It just occured to me that a powerful gesalt character would be perfect for a returning player who was going to be a one-shot in the game.

Anytime you have a new player you want them to be the hero for the game. You want them having fun and being the center of attention. True newbies might be better off with a "normal" character, but for a 2e guy coming back to gaming this might be perfect. Give him a gesalt and say "Yeah, I know it's a little powerful, but have fun" and watch the guy have a blast as he kills all the bad guys in the room.

Just a thought.

 

[Chupacabra]

Gestalts should certainly not have LA *2. Its easy to think that they have "double" of alot of things, but (as stated in UA) one thing they don't have two of is actions per round. Yeah, maybe your Gestalt can cast Fireball AND Turn Undead, but he can't do both at once. No way one gestalt can "take the place of" two PC's in combat.

Again, Gestalts are ideal for small parties where you don't have the actual player bodies to fill all the necessary PC roles (tank, healer, spellslinger, sneaky peat, jack-of-all trades). But even for larger parties, they are not Super-PC's.

 

[nameless]

As for one type of gestalt combo being more powerful than the next, if all classes are presumed balanced to begin with, this is not really possible, is it?

Generally the classes are fairly balanced against each other. The abilities stay separate, but there are a handful of things I've found that can synergize and possibly be unbalancing. One that immediately comes to mind is the Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior. It's normally impossible to be a top-notch fighter and spellcaster at the same time, so you'll either have weak spells to burn and good fighting ability, or strong spells to burn and weak fighting ability. Other than the odd exception like that, one gestalt choice seems as balanced as the next.

The thing that I believe your LA suggestion fails to take into account is the exponential power curve of D&D. Double the power of a level 7 isn't a level 14, it's a level 9 (according to CR, anyways). Someone with an LA is not at a constant disadvantage, the gap gets bigger as the levels get higher, which balances out the additive abilities in an LA.

Finally, I suggest everyone who's curious takes a look at the XP table. For any particular level, look at how much XP is necessary. Then look at what level you can be with half that XP. If a gestalt character had to pay full xp for each separate class (a la 2E multiclassing), he'd end up between 2 and 5 levels behind a regular character. The UA says that it's between +1 and +2, and DMG says +2, and strict XP puts it somewhere between +2 and +5. +3 just feels right to me.

 

[iceifur]

IMC we've tried the following:

lvl 1-2 = LA +1
lvl 3-5 = LA +2
lvl 6-8 = LA +3
lvl 9-11 = LA +4
etc...

When combined with the rules for buying-off LA in UA, this results in a constant LA of +1 (the character "buys-off" one +1 and gets another in its place), but with a slower progression for the Gestalter in comparison to the rest of the (non-gestalting) party.

 

[Steverooo]

Gestalt characters, in campaigns where most PCs are Prestige Classed, should work out about even. If the Gestalted PCs are also allowed to Prestige, however, then everyone else must be allowed to Gestalt, too...

I tried a multiclassed PC in a campaign where everyone else was Prestige Classing, and I felt like the "also ran". When he was allowed to upgrade as Gestalt, I didn't think he was too powerful. YMMV. Again, it depends upon the classes (mine didn't have spell abilities).