Getting rid of masterwork/expertise

[CapnZapp]

Okay, that's it. I've had it with the mess that is the "math patch" rules in 4E.

From now on my item level and enhancement bonus table looks like this. Masterwork armor doesn't exist (other than repriced exotic items that provides no AC bonus). Expertise feats does not exist. The epic +4 to F/R/W feats do not exist.

Feel free to point out anything wonky I've forgotten to take into account.

I did simplify the table by not having separate progressions for attack/damage, light armor (should only go to 8) and neck items (should go to 10).



Example: You have a Resounding Mace +5, Dwarven Wyrmscale +5 and a Cloak of Resistance +5. That is, lvl 22 items.

After this, you have a Resounding Mace +7, Dwarven Scalemail +9 and a Cloak of Resistance +7 instead.

You also have a couple of freed feat slots!


Zapp

PS. Didn't post into houserules as this is more of an reimagining of the published rules than a change or mod.

 

[RangerWickett]

Me personally, I disentangle 'magic' with 'enhancement bonus.' Instead of that normal +1/2 levels thing, PCs get a +1 bonus per level to attack rolls, damage rolls, and defenses. (Skill bonuses remain at 1/2 level).

The extra damage bonus balances out that magic weapons no longer deal extra dice on crits.

So now PCs don't need magic items to compete with monsters, and their stats scale smoothly at the same rate monster stats do. Any magic items they find or make will do interesting things, instead of just increasing numbers.

 

[keterys]

Hmm, why separate skills from that RW?

I was going to recommend replacing ability score bumps (ie, no +1 to attrs at 4,8,11,etc), enhancement bonuses, and changing masterwork/expertise/etc with just +1/level.

I would keep critical bonus on the weapons, though. Optimally you'd just make it heroic/paragon/epic tiers of weapons/armor/neck instead of six of them, as well, but at a certain point it's too much work.

 

[RangerWickett]

Hmm, why separate skills from that RW?

Because DCs in the book are already pre-assigned. Though honestly, what I posted above is the simpler version. My personal preference is to keep PCs at 1/2 level, and reduce monsters to 1/2 level too, instead of 1/level.

And yes, if you do this, you need to get rid of the 4th/8th/11th/etc. level stat boosts too.

 

[keterys]

Because DCs in the book are already pre-assigned.

Fair enough - that said, people do increase their skills via stat bumps and sometimes by magic items, boons, etc, so the party's abilities to hit the DCs may drift slightly with level.

Not by enough to really worry I suspect, though.

 

[CapnZapp]

Like Ranger, I want to change as little as possible of the published numbers.

Unlike him however, I am not ready to remove enhancement bonuses altogether. (Or at least my players aren't. Or at least I think so)

Getting back on topic, you've made me realize I'm effectively granting the Expertise feats' bonus to damage as well as to-hit. I guess it's a good thing I didn't catch this before, so I couldn't be tempted to make things more complex. (I am not worried those extra points of damage will make the game less fun. In fact, the way this reduces monster hp slightly suits me just fine!)

 

[aurance]

I did the same thing as you, CapnZapp. Except I just gave the bonuses as listed to the PCs at periodic levels, instead of dealing with items. Also, I spaced out the levels so you would never acquire a +2 jump in one level, due to ability score increase and enhancement bonus. But in the end my numbers are the same as yours, i.e. +9/+9/+12/+9.

 

[eamon]

Problems with this approach:

• bonuses rise at levels other that 1/6/11 etc. This means that e.g. a weapon with a powerful level 5 enchantment now gets the enchantment for less than free; the level 6 weapon will have no extra effect but the same bonus
• Minor: The balance between light/heavy armor is upset. Heavy armor has a tough time competing with light armor as is, and this progression will make high-AC tanks gravitate towards the more attractive light armor options (which happen to also have no speed penalty).

Why not simply grant expertise "for free"?

Granting expertise "for free" and granting an identical FRW boost leaves more of the base game alone (with few unwanted rules interactions), and is simpler to implement with the character builder to boot. It also avoids messing with the armor balance.

 

[Nikosandros]

Problems with this approach:

Why not simply grant expertise "for free"?

Granting expertise "for free" and granting an identical FRW boost leaves more of the base game alone (with few unwanted rules interactions), and is simpler to implement with the character builder to boot. It also avoids messing with the armor balance.

I'm leaning towards giving expertise for free. Which defense feats are you proposing to give for free?

 

[CapnZapp]

Granting expertise "for free" and granting an identical FRW boost leaves more of the base game alone (with few unwanted rules interactions), and is simpler to implement with the character builder to boot. It also avoids messing with the armor balance.

Well, if that is the only way to avoid trouble, I'll consider it. Very grudgingly however, as it really bugs me to see the inelegance of adding arbitrary bonuses to the very core of the system.

The ideal solution would of course be to instead modify all attacks and all defenses of all monsters, but I guess that ship has sailed.

About "it avoids messing with the armor balance" - I don't see what you're proposing. (Remember, the goal when tweaking AC is to not have to have masterwork materials around)