Getting rid of masterwork/expertise

[KarinsDad]

I also wouldn't assume that any game will last more than a session at level 30. Fight Orcus/Demogorgon/Tiamat/whatever. Wrap Campaign.

Heh, so either way you won't do more than a usual 10 or so encounters at that level. Even if it takes forever to do the encounters

That's the final level. The summit.

There's no way I would spend a single session on it. I might even have it be more than the standard 10 or so encounters (but many of those would not be long drawn out Epic fights, just minor obstacles towards the main goals), just to make it truly Epic.

But a single session? How anti-climatic.

Yes, most of the game is about killing foes, acquiring loot, and acquiring new shiny abilities, but level 30 is about wrapping up the Epic Destinies. Making the world safe for Democracy, err, Anarcy, err, Monarchy, err, whatever.

Fighting Orcus/Demogorgon/Tiamat/whatever is/are the subplot(s) at that level that add to the real plot and overall campaign goals.

But, there is no way I would just wrap up the campaign with a single session massive combat against a Deity. That's just another fight. I'd wrap it up with Earthquakes and Kingdoms falling and Typhons and the new order rising after the old (abet, many worthwhile older elements would remain if good PCs were successful in routing evil or whatever), and definitely quite a few fights against Deities/Demons in the process.

Depending on the campaign, the world might not be Points of Light anymore. It might be Points of Darkness where the Darkness retreats to strike back another day.

 

[keterys]

That's the final level. The summit.

Depending on what epic destinies your characters took, it might actually be the nadir.

But a single session? How anti-climatic.

I'd actually recommend no sessions at all, but if you're getting there, certainly no longer than any other level. So a few sessions, certainly.

Yes, most of the game is about killing foes, acquiring loot, and acquiring new shiny abilities, but level 30 is about wrapping up the Epic Destinies. Making the world safe for Democracy, err, Anarcy, err, Monarchy, err, whatever.

Fighting Orcus/Demogorgon/Tiamat/whatever is/are the subplot(s) at that level that add to the real plot and overall campaign goals.

But, there is no way I would just wrap up the campaign with a single session massive combat against a Deity. That's just another fight. I'd wrap it up with Earthquakes and Kingdoms falling and Typhons and the new order rising after the old (abet, many worthwhile older elements would remain if good PCs were successful in routing evil or whatever), and definitely quite a few fights against Deities/Demons in the process.

Actually, that's what levels 21-30 are about. All that should be happening at levels below 30.

 

[KarinsDad]

Depending on what epic destinies your characters took, it might actually be the nadir.

Maybe eventually, but not right away.

I'd actually recommend no sessions at all, but if you're getting there, certainly no longer than any other level. So a few sessions, certainly.

What are you smoking? I'd like some of that.

Recommend no sessions? My players just acquired their 30th level Destiny Power and you'd do no sessions as a DM???

My table would riot on me.

Actually, that's what levels 21-30 are about. All that should be happening at levels below 30.

No doubt. But, those are just preludes to the climatic events of level 30. IMO.

Wonderful aspects of the game levels 21-29, but still climbing the mountain. Just laying the groundwork for the final level.

Level 30, the PCs have truly come on the cusp of their Destinies (for all intents and purposes). This is their shining moment, not their moment to disappear. Not quite yet. Maybe in the final battle if their destiny is to sacrifice themselves (for some of them), but I wouldn't make that as short as a single session.

Give the players their moment in the sun. Allow them to use their 30th level Epic Destiny power a dozen times or so.

Because quite frankly, level 30 is pretty darn rare in most games, especially games that start at level 1 and creep up. It takes years in real life for most groups to get there.

Cutting it short like you suggest? Nah. That's lame. Getting to level 30 (or 20 or whatever in earlier editions) was always a longterm goal of mine as a player. I'd want to bask in it if I ever got there (which I never have in over 30 years of gaming, campaigns have always faltered due to real world instrusions, typically by level 12 or so).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Recommend no sessions? My players just acquired their 30th level Destiny Power and you'd do no sessions as a DM???

My table would riot on me.

I'm right there with you, KD. When my group finally reached 20th in 3.X after 6+ years or so (beginning of 3.0 till the introduction of 4E, so how long is that?) they demanded at least a few sessions at that level. If (not when) they reach 30th in 4E, there's NO WAY they're not gonna want to exercise those powers. If not, I had better start looking over my shoulder and having someone else start my car.

 

[keterys]

Maybe eventually, but not right away.

Depending on what you have, the fights might get really, really bad is what I mean.

Recommend no sessions? My players just acquired their 30th level Destiny Power and you'd do no sessions as a DM??? My table would riot on me.

No, I'm actually recommending not trying to get to 30th at all. The campaign could just as easily end at 20th, 23rd, 26th, etc.

And the game will play better than it did at 30th.

No doubt. But, those are just preludes to the climatic events of level 30. IMO.

Don't sell the other nine levels of play short, but to each their own.

Because quite frankly, level 30 is pretty darn rare in most games, especially games that start at level 1 and creep up. It takes years in real life for most groups to get there.

Yep. And some of that time could instead have been spent on another campaign. On new ideas. New fun.

Cutting it short like you suggest? Nah. That's lame. Getting to level 30 (or 20 or whatever in earlier editions) was always a longterm goal of mine as a player. I'd want to bask in it if I ever got there (which I never have in over 30 years of gaming, campaigns have always faltered due to real world instrusions, typically by level 12 or so).

20 was pretty bad in 3e too, though it actually got bad earlier and 20th in particular was not a noteworthy bump. In 4e, 30 is the noteworthy bump where _depending on the epic destinies_ the game just crashes and burns. Mind you, you can go ahead and fix that ahead of time, but then you're pre-emptively stealing their basking, eh?