Getting the drop on someone

[ogre]

I have been wondering if a deadly system would work when someone gets the drop on someone with a firearm. I'm talking about the ole' movie cliche where a person holds someone at bay with a gun. I realize this happens every time someone wins inititive, .... but are there any precidents for an auto-crit, or save or die effects? I kinda miss the drama and story elements that having players and NPCs fear that first shot A LOT more than fearing a normal gun battle would bring to the table.
What about the effects of holding a gun to someones head, as a hostage?

What I am considering is an auto crit (if the attack hits), auto initiative (for the one holding the gun) and the target is flatfooted.
For the 'gun held to head' scenario, its a cue day gra (good god how do you spell that?) situation. One exception where the target isn't helpless, but if they move the attacker gets a freebie on them before they can act.

Has this already been covered in the d20 Modern rules and I just missed it?

Opinions?

 

[GlassJaw]

I like ambush rules but I don't understand the desire to make firearms more deadly.

Firearms aside, in my variant ruleset (see sig), I use the VP/WP system. Any damage taken during a surprise round goes to both VP and WP. Moral of the story? Getting ambushed is bad.

Now back to the firearms.

Why would getting shot do any more or less damage than getting nailed by a greatsword? If anything, that gunshot wound might be a lot cleaner than getting cleaved by an axe. The advantage of using firearms is that they are easy to use, do a good amount of damage as-is, and deal that damage at range.

Also, depending on the type of damage system you use, a gun should be able to kill the "average" person outright (say 6-8 hp's, give or take). Put that gun in the hands of another "average" person and now you have a very deadly situation on your hands.

I think a lot of people's issues with firearms has more to do with the hp system rather than the firearms themselves.

 

[Roudi]

Going the "coup de grace" route would be easier (that is how you spell it, by the way; it's pronounced "coo - deuh - grass"). A coup de grace is effectively the same thing as forcing the victim to roll a Massive Damage save or die. There's no point mucking about with damage rolls and critical modifiers... a bullet to the head at point-blank range is almost always a lethal threat, no matter the gun caliber.

Remember - it's not the damage that guns do that make them lethal in d20 Modern. It's the Massive Damage save system that makes them lethal.

 

[ogre]

Thanks for the feedback.
I think I'll run with the coup de grace mechanic, that seems to fit the bill nicely. At least for guns/blades held to the throat or head.
This is more for cinematic purposes than true game mechanics, and it would apply to a hostage held with a knife at their throats too. (now, how they get in that predicament is another matter, but I'll leave that to the story telling.)

 

[HellHound]

In some Green Ronin games, all attacks in the ambush round are considered to have achieved Massive Damage, no matter how little damage was done.

This is a great way to make getting ambushed very deadly.

 

[takyris]

Hellhound: Awesome. That's close to what I independently came up with as a system to use in pulp-noir games -- anyone flat-footed has their Massive Damage Threshold lowered by 10 (which means most hits are going to force a save, but the guy who takes Improved Threshold still gets a benefit), and any hit is an automatic critical threat (but not an automatic critical hit).

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I forced MDT saves in surprise situations, but I used a sliding MDT DC based on damage, so the saves were often lower.

It was quite fun to watch the stealthy character slinking around "taking out" guards with quick silent attacks without the need for any Sneak Attack damage at all. Alot of fun for him too.

Then they ran afoul of some assassins ... which was fun for ME. Not especially deadly, actually, but boy were they scared.

--fje

 

[billking]

It seems to me that, if you can deliver a coup de grace, you should be able to use the ready action so that you trigger a coup de grace. Then you are free to talk to, interrogate, torture, etc., the victim until later.

If the trigger is interrupted by something, I would give the player the option to deliver it immediately. If he chooses to, then it happens. If not, the distraction action would have a chance to interrupt his readied action as described under the Concentration skill. Failure would result in the victim being freed. Of course, if the distraction is worthy enough of his attention (such as someone firing at him, when he's got a person he needs to take back alive at the end of his pistol), he may fail voluntarily.

Also keep in mind that the victim can fight back; I'd handle that the same way I'd handle an outside distraction, essentially forcing the player to either deliver through with the coup de grace or risk losing his captive.

 

[genshou]

I've also considered capturing rules for getting into these situations in the first place. Here's my latest idea; critique it as you desire:

Capture
In order to capture an opponent, you must have a weapon that normally deals lethal damage in hand (including a gauntlet or monk unarmed strike), must have successfully pinned them for at least one round, and must have taken no other actions in your current turn except free actions and/or a grapple check to maintain the pin. You also must not be engaged in grappling with any other opponents (your allies, however, may freely grapple with you as you capture). If you succeed on a grapple check to pin the target again a second round, you may elect to attempt to capture the opponent in lieu of your remaining attacks/actions for your turn. You provoke an attack of opportunity from foes other than those with whom you are grappling. If you are dealt any damage from these attacks, you fail to capture your opponent. If you are not dealt damage, make an opposed grapple check against the pinned foe. Success allows you to hold a weapon to the foe. You may only use a light weapon which is in hand, and you gain the future potential to make an attack against the pinned foe (see below). The weapon's natural threat range is doubled for this attack (e.g. a short sword would threaten on a 17-20, or on a 15-20 with Improved Critical).

If you successfully hold a captured opponent for one round, you may attempt to capture them again (using the same rules as before). Failure does not indicate that the foe is no longer captured; simply that you fail to increase the level of lethality toward the target. Success means that you automatically threaten on your attacked against the captured character, and you get a +4 bonus to the roll to confirm the critical hit.

If you are attacked while you have a character captured, you may choose to activate your free attack. Your attack occurs simultaneously to that of the attacker who triggered you, so you may successfully complete it even if the foe drops you. Make an opposed grapple check against the captured character. Success means you have hit and deal appropriate damage. Use the natural roll result with the appropriate threat range modifier above to determine if your hit is a threat. On a threat, roll a new grapple check against the foe's previous opposed check, but use your own size modifer or your opponent's on your confirmation check, whichever is lower. Success means you deal critical hit damage, and the target must make a save vs. massive damage. If your critical hit dealt damage greater than or equal to their Constitution score (or in a low-MDT setting such as d20 Modern, equals or exceeds their MDT), their save suffers a -5 penalty. Failing the massive damage save means the captured character is dead.

A captured character can escape simply by escaping the pin. However, the attempt triggers your free attack. If they succeed in escaping the pin, they are no longer captured and thus you make only a regular grapple check, without the chance of scoring a critical hit. All other rules for the free attack apply as above.

Once you have used your free attack, you cannot make another until your next turn.