Ghostwalker Problems - How balanced is this ?

[Saeviomagy]

First, I think no name beyond a nickname. Certainly nothing given out by the ghostwalker.

After that - I think the bonuses should apply not only to the next encounter, but for all time until vengeance has been had. Furthermore, I'd think that repeated defeat should warrant stacking of the bonus.

Finally - the bonus only applies against the foes that fought last time.

I'd also agree that this is certainly a loner style of character, although it could possibly work within a group.

 

[The Souljourner]

Nicknames can't possibly take away his powers, otherwise the enemy who just fought him would be able to do it.

"Who was that guy!?"
"I don't know, let's call him Baddy McBadd."
[later that week]
"Oh crap, look, it's Baddy McBadd again!"

I'm pretty sure the intention was his given name. If people just start calling him "The Man in Black", it's not going to take his powers, but if they know he's Wesley.... well, then there's trouble.

For a PC class it's horribly unbalanced. 98% of the time, it's wicked sucky - and 2% of the time it's super powerful (assuming you're at least midway through the ghostwalker levels). Average it out, and it's way underpowered.

Awesome, awesome flavor, but poor rules to back it up. I mean, how often do you really fight someone and come back to fight another day? It's very rare in my experience.

-The Souljourner

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

.........

After that - I think the bonuses should apply not only to the next encounter, but for all time until vengeance has been had. Furthermore, I'd think that repeated defeat should warrant stacking of the bonus.

..........

I'd also agree that this is certainly a loner style of character, although it could possibly work within a group.

Stacking the Painful reckoning bonus ??? Oh my, we are talking of a bonus of +1/char level ... at current that would be +5 to AC, attack and damage.. If you stacked that ....no way. We also decided that it needed 2d10 minutes since the initial encounter to kick in, or coming back from a helpless condition/use of feign death. I will see how it works out.

As for the "loner" - as the character has been built yesterday, I can vouch for his pretty nifty backstory and motivation fitting in nicely with the group. Maybe a very much campaign-dependent feature, that. But this group IMC could honestly be called the "Grudgebearers"...

For a PC class it's horribly unbalanced. 98% of the time, it's wicked sucky - and 2% of the time it's super powerful (assuming you're at least midway through the ghostwalker levels). Average it out, and it's way underpowered.

Awesome, awesome flavor, but poor rules to back it up. I mean, how often do you really fight someone and come back to fight another day? It's very rare in my experience.

-The Souljourner

Repeat fights ? Happens all the time in this campaign, actually - the characters are weak on spying, scrying and information-legwork, but incredibly resillient. Usually they manage to get nose-deep into sh**, but almost always manage to extradite themselves somehow, so they get to go toe-to-toe again with opposition repeatedly. But the tendency is not all that common, I agree.

 

[green slime]

After a player fatality without recourse (taken down and consumed by Greenslime, of all things at 12th level ) ...

Care to comment ?

Yeah! Go the slimes!!

green slime for president!!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Repeat fights ? Happens all the time in this campaign, actually - the characters are weak on spying, scrying and information-legwork, but incredibly resillient. Usually they manage to get nose-deep into sh**, but almost always manage to extradite themselves somehow, so they get to go toe-to-toe again with opposition repeatedly. But the tendency is not all that common, I agree.

How often do they do it? How many times do they fight an opponent before that opponent is defeated?

This ties back into allowing it to stack through multiple defeats. I mean sure if the bad guys are on average having 3-5 skirmishes with the party, seriously injuring most of the party members in most of those fights, then stacking the bonus would be bad.

If the usual sequence is that the party has an initial confrontation that they back away from quickly, sustaining minor damage, then perhaps one or two major fights with losses all round, then I can't see the problem. It's certainly less potent than if (say) the party spellcaster geases or feebleminds an opponent.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

How often do they do it? How many times do they fight an opponent before that opponent is defeated?

This ties back into allowing it to stack through multiple defeats. I mean sure if the bad guys are on average having 3-5 skirmishes with the party, seriously injuring most of the party members in most of those fights, then stacking the bonus would be bad.

If the usual sequence is that the party has an initial confrontation that they back away from quickly, sustaining minor damage, then perhaps one or two major fights with losses all round, then I can't see the problem. It's certainly less potent than if (say) the party spellcaster geases or feebleminds an opponent.

Well, as a rule of thumb, usually once or twice per adventure (level 12 PCs now, around 1,5 levels gained/adventure), and as I have some re-occuring villains tied into the campaign (one of them an ex-PC, who switched sides, when his player moved and quit), as well as some "professional-rivals" who they keep going to blows with, it would certainly make me queasy, because these NPC-guys could be in real trouble with a Ghostwalker with a stacked on bonus of AC/Attack/Damage of +10 or even +15... And to be honest, I would see that amount of a bonus to "fail" in a fight on purpose, then retreat and stack on the bonus until they feel safely loaded as some sort of incentive or encouragement.

 

[Mapleaxe]

Another cinematic example of a Ghostwalker could be the Bride from the Kill Bill movies. She keeps coming back from the dead, and to the audience at least, we don't find out her name until almost the end of the movie.

 

[Wrahn]

For god sakes, allow him to add Intimidate to his skill list. He has all these cool intimidate abilities and it isn't on the Ghostwalker skill list. (It isn't even errata'd)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, as a rule of thumb, usually once or twice per adventure (level 12 PCs now, around 1,5 levels gained/adventure), and as I have some re-occuring villains tied into the campaign (one of them an ex-PC, who switched sides, when his player moved and quit), as well as some "professional-rivals" who they keep going to blows with, it would certainly make me queasy, because these NPC-guys could be in real trouble with a Ghostwalker with a stacked on bonus of AC/Attack/Damage of +10 or even +15... And to be honest, I would see that amount of a bonus to "fail" in a fight on purpose, then retreat and stack on the bonus until they feel safely loaded as some sort of incentive or encouragement.

Remember - failing in a fight means being taken down to half hitpoints.

If you have problems taking on an opponent enough to need a large bonus against him, then you can't afford to 'let' him take you down to half hitpoints. And if you do, then you'd better be very well assured of your ability to escape him.

 

[ARandomGod]

Ok, thanks for the feedback, its appreciated, even if it all comes down to "there is no definite rule per se, just guidelines" hehe. The archetype the player was thinking about was something in the vein of a "tough it out Bruce Willis", guy who gets knocked around heavily and a lot, but , getting a second wind down the fight, really takes out the opposition. Maybe I will allow it to "kick-in" in a single battle with some random delay (as the anger builds ) - maybe [2d10 rounds - Ghostwalker level ] after having been wounded. Otherwise, I simply see the characters falling back deliberately after the Ghostwalker has been "banged up" enough, to give him just the viscious edge he needs a few minutes later... cheesy, yet possible. I'd rather have them wonder how soon the Ghostwalker will pull his act together and starts saving their bacon. I mean, how many fights last for more than a dozen of rounds, right ?
The "Anonymity" part with a handle/nick being allowed sounds fair to me, seeing how divination can spoil the game really quick anyways. Guess a ring of mind shielding or a similar non-detection item will be high on his list of "wanted" items.

Personally, when I read it (here) I imagined it kicking in the round after the character had lost those HP, and having effect only during that battle. Sort of the opposite of what's supposed to happen, neh? I don't see that it would be too much that way (affecting the current and only current encounter). As if you have it effect every other encounter then there are going to be several wherein he gets full bonuses and starts at full resources (health, ability/item uses per day, etc). And those several would be the more important ones too.
But, having it do both would be too much IMO. IE I don't think it should effect the current and future encounters... An initial penalty to the rounds afterwards might be a good balance, on the other hand 2d10 - level could (and would in many of my games) be longer than many encounters. Heheh... Live or die fast I suppose. How long do encounters last in your game? It just seemes to me (because of our games) that this would be making the effect more powerful, but only slightly, and mainly as a consolation for not giving the player what he wants. Although a pretty good consolation... but I see the character fighting defensively and running until it kicks in that way, just like I can see the character running completely away and waiting for another encounter if that is where the bonus is. But give the bonus to the character only when he's really down, and only that encounter, that seems quite dramatic.