Gish build - wiz/rog

[notjer]

Hey folks,

I am trying to make a gish character for an upcoming 3.5 campaign where we start at lvl 2. I will present to you my build and hope you will come with some useful suggestions on how to improve this it.

It is a gish build, so I following the principle of dogma which mean I put up restrion for my build.

1) it must be a wiz/rog gish
2) Knowledge in general are a high priority
3) it must be human

Stats (sick throws)
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 17
Int 18
Wis 15
Cha 15

Two flaws are allowed. I am thinking of taking Pathetic (-2 charisma) and Vulnerable (-1 ac)

I am thinking of taking the traits detached and saddleborn

From quintessial of wizard I and Rogue I want to pick up character concepts "Academic" and "Explore"

I am leaning toward exchange my specialization out with domain wizard and take the fighter variant for rogues to be granted feats rather than sneak attack.
My DM has allowed that if I go into prestige classes with sneak attack progression I can get fighter feats instead.

Feats 2 human, 2 flaws, 1 fighter
Knowledge devotion
Improve initiative
Able leaner
Practice spellcaster
????

Future build

I think it would be good to take the 3 levels of human paragon despite losing one caster level progression.

Obvious choice of career would be arcane trickster and maybe daggerspell mage, though my guts tell me that without sneak attack I might have ended up crippling myself.

I am also thinking of loremaster which would fit the character concept and I already have the skill focus (knowledge something) feat through the character concept "Academic".

Extra note: there will be early renaissance weapon in the game - so a little clockwork now and then also.

I look forward to your contributions

 

[Dandu]

Gish Handbook
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

What is it you imagine this character being able to do? What kind os spells, skills, etc, would you be inclined to use?

My first impression would be utility spells to help the Rogue side be more Rogue-y, I'd like to point you to This Thread on spells that duplicate skills. This should help you apply skillpoints to what you need, and suppliment the rest with spells.

 

[Wyvernhand]

It doesn't have to be complicated to be good. Something as simple as Rogue or Spellthief 1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10 is a good start. Try not to loose spellcaster levels. Take Able Learner from Races of Destiny at level 1, which requires human, and you'll pretty much have every skill worth taking as a class skill for each level. USS gets 6+ int skill points, which is awesome, plus expanded learning lets you poach Divine Insight off the cleric list (its in Complete Divine). Knowledge Devotion allows you to literally beat people up with how smart you are, so that its one to consider. Use spells like Greater Blinking to protect yourself and enable SA damage, and spells like Greater Mirror Image to save your butt when you get targeted.

Don't drop your SA damage. You need some form of bonus damage to make your attacks worthwhile, and you can deliver SA with some spells, which is useful.

 

[Nezkrul]

the best gishes are straight arcane casters that can cast divine power for full base attack; like this one:

Wizard 10 / Incantatrix 10

feats: 1st-iron will, human-extend spell, wiz-scribe scroll; 3rd-persistent spell; 5th- wiz- easy metamagic (persistent) (from dragon magazine #325 ) or if that isn't allowed take spell penetration; 6th-Arcane Disicple (Competition, Orc, Pride, or War domain; your character must be the same alignment and worshipper of a deity that grants access to the chosen domain; 4 ranks in knowledge (religion)); 9th-quicken spell; 10th-wiz- greater spell penetration; 11th-incant- empower spell, 12th- improved initiative, 14th-incant- maximize spell, 15th- easy metamagic (quicken spell) or twin spell; 17th-incant- easy metamagic (maximize spell) or split-ray spell; 18th- arcane strike; 20th-incant- heighten spell

Incantatrix is in Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5e class); Arcane Disciple feat is in Complete Divine, it adds the chosen domain's spells to your class spell list allowing you to learn them normally and cast them once per day each (Competition is bolded because you can learn Divine Power, Righteous Might, AND Greater Visage of the Deity from it; all of them bad ass buffs, but Divine Power is what you want); Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat from Dragon #325 that reduces the slot increase of a chosen metamagic feat by 1 to a min of +1; you can take it multiple times but only once per metamagic feat you have; Arcane Strike feat lets you sacrifice a spell slot as a free action at the start of your turn to give you +x to hit and +xd4 damage for 1 round x=spell level with a weapon of your choice.

If you persistent spell Divine Power it will last 24 hours, netting you full base attack bonus (gish). Get yourself some either rings of counterspells or greater rings of counterspells for Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic, so if the DM targets you with said spell you auto counter it at least once. If you can take easy metamagic feat, it makes persistent spell only +5 slot mod so you can prepare persistent divine power as a 9th level spell; but the best thing to do is to use Incantatrix's instant metamagic class feature- which lets you instantly apply, for free, 1 metamagic feat you have to a spell you cast; so divine power instant metamagic persistent spell = 4th level slot. The EARLIEST you can get instant metamagic with a wizard build is 12th level, but that is good enough because you can have Divine Power as a known spell by then, so long as you Arcane Disciple for one of the listed domains above.

at 15th level, you'll have instant metamagic 2x a day, so pick another disgusting buff to have all day (like Greater Blink, or Bite of the Werebear) and make it so.

 

[notjer]

I agree, the bast gish are straight arcane caster. I just want to play it with the theme of wiz/rogue with emphasis on caster. It is also related to the background of the character. Furthermore, Forgotten Realms is not allowed in this campaign, however. The DM are willing to accept non-core books (as you can see with the quentessial books).... just not the feats and classes in forgotten Realms.

Arcane Disciple feat seems quite strong so I will most likely strive for that with the domain(s) you mentioned combined with persistent spell.

Thansk for the advices !

 

[Nezkrul]

worthless to take arcane disciple and persistent spell for divine power if you can't take easy metamagic feat or incantatrix (to lower the slot mod or get instant metamagic ability) you can only cast divine power once a day, if you can't persistent it it's not worth it.

Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 5 is a good build; but it isn't a gish, its a rogue caster;

the term Gish refers to an old type of monster from first edition where the Gith (or githyanki) would be a Fighter/Magic-user character, combining sword with sorcery

 

[notjer]

ah did not know the origin. Just heard the term also been used for wiz/rogue.

I will talk with my DM about the easy metamagic feat. Maybe I can convince him to allow that feat even though it is from dragon magazine. Again, thanks a lot.

 

[the Jester]

3) it must be human

AAARGH!!!

Sorry... SORRY!... can't resist... sorry to be pedantic, but "gish" are not human, they are githyanki.

By definition.

The term "gish" gets misused terribly in the gamer community. I hate it when it's misused. You don't refer to your Dark Sun-based human enchanter as a "bladesinger" just because some elven wizards in FR are called bladesingers, do you?

[/rant]

EDIT: I see someone ninja'd me on this, but was substantially less, umm, forceful about it. Also that you were an unwilling victim of ignorance. So no offense intended... I just... it's one of those things that just GETS me, you know? And I have no idea why.

 

[Dandu]

Shall I get off your lawn?