D&D 3E/3.5 Give unto me your "Power Gamer's 3.5 Guide to Rogues"
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griff_goodbeard
First Post
Whisper Gnomes are certainly overpowered for a +0 LA race, and make perfect rouges.
If you can use UA, the dwarf paragon class is nice too. I had a lot of fun playing a "feat" rogue/dwarf paragon. Extended darkvision, stonecutting out to 10', more HP's and BA than a normal rogue. Not having SA kind of hurt, but I played him almost like a skilled fighter.
If you can use UA, the dwarf paragon class is nice too. I had a lot of fun playing a "feat" rogue/dwarf paragon. Extended darkvision, stonecutting out to 10', more HP's and BA than a normal rogue. Not having SA kind of hurt, but I played him almost like a skilled fighter.
buzz
Adventurer
:casts raise dead:
Okay, I'm definitely going deep halfling.
I figure good ol' Improved Initiative is my choice for the 1st level feat. Seeing as Rog20 is a "dead" level, I'm assuming I can spend one level multiclassing to fighter, specifically, 3rd. That way I can grab two feats that level: Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain). I need the former seeing as my halfling's Str is going to suck no matter what; I want the latter as the spiked chain is pretty much the best Finesse-able weapon for a small combatant. 1d6, reach & adjacent, trip/disarm bonuses, and it's easily tucked in a backpack when necessary.
Of course, maybe it's better to just make use of an overall better weapon given he'll have the proficiency from being a fighter. Would it be stupid for a small rogue to just lug around a Greatsword? At least that'd be one less feat to get.
I figure that the level of fighter would also boost his Fort a bit, add a decent hit die, BAB, and give some useful weapon and armor proficiencies.
I was also considering getting a masterwork buckler at that point, as the -1 attack penalty for using it would be offset by the halfling's inherrent +1.
But what feats would come later? The good combat feats have too many prereqs for a non-fighter. Taking the fighter level puts him behind in his Will save progression, so maybe Iron Will? Then what? Nimble Fingers? Quick Draw or Rapid Reload? (I'm still not sure what'd be a good ranged weapon for him.)
Any thoughts on this whole concept are appreciated.
Okay, I'm definitely going deep halfling.
I figure good ol' Improved Initiative is my choice for the 1st level feat. Seeing as Rog20 is a "dead" level, I'm assuming I can spend one level multiclassing to fighter, specifically, 3rd. That way I can grab two feats that level: Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain). I need the former seeing as my halfling's Str is going to suck no matter what; I want the latter as the spiked chain is pretty much the best Finesse-able weapon for a small combatant. 1d6, reach & adjacent, trip/disarm bonuses, and it's easily tucked in a backpack when necessary.
Of course, maybe it's better to just make use of an overall better weapon given he'll have the proficiency from being a fighter. Would it be stupid for a small rogue to just lug around a Greatsword? At least that'd be one less feat to get.
I figure that the level of fighter would also boost his Fort a bit, add a decent hit die, BAB, and give some useful weapon and armor proficiencies.
I was also considering getting a masterwork buckler at that point, as the -1 attack penalty for using it would be offset by the halfling's inherrent +1.
But what feats would come later? The good combat feats have too many prereqs for a non-fighter. Taking the fighter level puts him behind in his Will save progression, so maybe Iron Will? Then what? Nimble Fingers? Quick Draw or Rapid Reload? (I'm still not sure what'd be a good ranged weapon for him.)
Any thoughts on this whole concept are appreciated.
werk
First Post
I don't see the benefit of that at all. -2 Str, 20' move, and small weapon damage is a huge detractor.buzz said:
We currently have a halfling rogue with an 8 Str, he can't do much other than blow his actions moving and the occasional pitiful ranged weapon damage (1d3-1)...pitiful.
Particle_Man
Explorer
Why is weapon damage relevant? For rogues it is all about the sneak attack anyhow.
Shin Okada
Explorer
I do not recommend Deep Halfling or Whisper Gnome. IIRC there going to be some nasty monster with grapple or maybe swallow whole, right? Then small size could be a kind of death sentence.
I recommend Dwarf for a single-class rogue. Darkvision & Stonecunning make an ultimate detecter. And higher Con helps him survive.
If you prefer survivability in combat, you can give up scouting abilities and play Rogue/Fighter type which do not has high Dex but instead wear medium/heavy armor. You will lose Evasion. But you can have much higher AC. And you can have better Str (instead of high dex) which allows you to fight well against monsters immune to critical. You can still Tumble in heavier armor (with Armor Check Penalty) if you are a dwarf.
Or, be a human and try some nice prestige classes such as Dark Hunter (Complete Warrior) or Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer). The former will give you Darkvision and Stonecunning. The latter is Rogue/Cleric which gives you access to various spells and magic items. Now I am playing a human Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Shadowbane Stalker 5 with travel and magic domain. Divine Insight spell allows him to actually disable high-level magical traps. And as he has Jack-of-All-Trades feat, he can use any skill at reasonable modifier (+15 from Divine Insight spell, + ability mod) when no other PCs have that skill. He gets competence bonuses to Search. When in need of better vision, he can use cleric/wizard items which give him Low-light Vision or Darkvision spells. Cleric spells provide him some combat buffing.
I recommend Dwarf for a single-class rogue. Darkvision & Stonecunning make an ultimate detecter. And higher Con helps him survive.
If you prefer survivability in combat, you can give up scouting abilities and play Rogue/Fighter type which do not has high Dex but instead wear medium/heavy armor. You will lose Evasion. But you can have much higher AC. And you can have better Str (instead of high dex) which allows you to fight well against monsters immune to critical. You can still Tumble in heavier armor (with Armor Check Penalty) if you are a dwarf.
Or, be a human and try some nice prestige classes such as Dark Hunter (Complete Warrior) or Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer). The former will give you Darkvision and Stonecunning. The latter is Rogue/Cleric which gives you access to various spells and magic items. Now I am playing a human Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Shadowbane Stalker 5 with travel and magic domain. Divine Insight spell allows him to actually disable high-level magical traps. And as he has Jack-of-All-Trades feat, he can use any skill at reasonable modifier (+15 from Divine Insight spell, + ability mod) when no other PCs have that skill. He gets competence bonuses to Search. When in need of better vision, he can use cleric/wizard items which give him Low-light Vision or Darkvision spells. Cleric spells provide him some combat buffing.
Saeviomagy said:
Ya know, I've been looking for the mechanic to do the slight of hand during combat. I've seen it done in several movies. Would the opponent get any bonus versus you, or do you have to hide and sneak up to use Sleight of Hand. Otherwise isn't it more of a disarm tactic?
Tellerve
nittanytbone
First Post
There are two types of rogues. Trap finders and sneak attackers.
To build a trap finder, all you need is one level of rogue and then pile on everything else you want. Spell caster levels or fighter levels or barbarian levels or whatever. The only pre-requisites are (1) high int and (2) maxed out search and disable device. No other skills matter -- you can bash open locks with a crowbar at low levels and an adamantite mace at higher levels. Being a human helps a lot because you need every skill point you can get.
To build a sneak attacker, you need (1) lots of SA damage and (2) as many attacks per round as possible and (3) a way to deny your enemies their dex bonus.
1 is a function of taking levels in rogue, blackguard, arcane trickster, guild hall thief, assassin, etc.
2 is optimized by using Two Weapon Fighting (nice synergy with two levels of ranger there) or maybe Rapid Shot.
3 can be accomplished by:
-Invisibility: Not bad. Only a level 2 spell. Use Silence from a cleric for better results.
-Sneaking: Eh. Requires you to spend precious skill points on Hide and Move Silently. Can be easily defeated in many cases by darkvision, a decent spot check, etc.
-Feinting: Worthless, requires waste of feats and skill points, and you can't full attack
-Flanking: Optimal choice. Take a level of barbarian (or monk levels) for fast movement. Works nicely with Spring Attack. Also consider a Grey Bag of Tricks (900 GP) for free flanking buddies.
So, after looking at all the options, humans really come out on top. Why? For trapfinders, they get extra skill points (essential). They also have access to Adaptive Learning from the HUman Paragon class which makes it much easier to keep Disable Device maxed out through your career. For Sneak Attackers, the extra feat is often essential. You don't get many feats as a rogue, so making each one count is awesome. Also, the best way to get sneak attacks is by flanking. Being a dwarf, halfling, gnome, etc really limits the viability of this tactic.
To build a trap finder, all you need is one level of rogue and then pile on everything else you want. Spell caster levels or fighter levels or barbarian levels or whatever. The only pre-requisites are (1) high int and (2) maxed out search and disable device. No other skills matter -- you can bash open locks with a crowbar at low levels and an adamantite mace at higher levels. Being a human helps a lot because you need every skill point you can get.
To build a sneak attacker, you need (1) lots of SA damage and (2) as many attacks per round as possible and (3) a way to deny your enemies their dex bonus.
1 is a function of taking levels in rogue, blackguard, arcane trickster, guild hall thief, assassin, etc.
2 is optimized by using Two Weapon Fighting (nice synergy with two levels of ranger there) or maybe Rapid Shot.
3 can be accomplished by:
-Invisibility: Not bad. Only a level 2 spell. Use Silence from a cleric for better results.
-Sneaking: Eh. Requires you to spend precious skill points on Hide and Move Silently. Can be easily defeated in many cases by darkvision, a decent spot check, etc.
-Feinting: Worthless, requires waste of feats and skill points, and you can't full attack
-Flanking: Optimal choice. Take a level of barbarian (or monk levels) for fast movement. Works nicely with Spring Attack. Also consider a Grey Bag of Tricks (900 GP) for free flanking buddies.
So, after looking at all the options, humans really come out on top. Why? For trapfinders, they get extra skill points (essential). They also have access to Adaptive Learning from the HUman Paragon class which makes it much easier to keep Disable Device maxed out through your career. For Sneak Attackers, the extra feat is often essential. You don't get many feats as a rogue, so making each one count is awesome. Also, the best way to get sneak attacks is by flanking. Being a dwarf, halfling, gnome, etc really limits the viability of this tactic.
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