D&D 3E/3.5 Give unto me your "Power Gamer's 3.5 Guide to Rogues"

[shilsen]

Amen. Once in a blue moon, it'd be nice as a high level pc to come across some mook sand have the DM say, "you come across a couple dozen bandits. how do you wanna wipe em out?"

True. One of the most enjoyable fights for the then 7th lvl PCs in one of my Eberron games was when they interrupted a mugging by four 2nd lvl muggers, who then made the mistake of attacking the PCs. A couple of the PCs politely got out of the way (barely bothering to defend themselves as they did so) so that the others could get to the muggers, and spent the time the fight took (maybe 3 rds, only because they were intentionally prolonging it) rolling smokes and making bets on how soon each mugger would go down, how soon they'd run, how far they'd get, etc. It was a hoot!

 

[Parlan]

True. One of the most enjoyable fights for the then 7th lvl PCs in one of my Eberron games was when they interrupted a mugging by four 2nd lvl muggers, who then made the mistake of attacking the PCs. A couple of the PCs politely got out of the way (barely bothering to defend themselves as they did so) so that the others could get to the muggers, and spent the time the fight took (maybe 3 rds, only because they were intentionally prolonging it) rolling smokes and making bets on how soon each mugger would go down, how soon they'd run, how far they'd get, etc. It was a hoot!

funny that. Mine was also in Eberron at about 5th lvl. I played a shifter Barb. A group of Goblin kids in the Fallen got their kicks by pelting our LG warforged cleric with stones when he made his evening rounds. His code wouldn't let him awknowledge the insult. My code wouldn't let me ignore it.

so i staked out their hiding place, carved a fraternity paddle and served up Justice, barbarian style.

 

[Timely Drought]

Shadowdancer is a fun prestige class, good for a one-level dip (maybe a 2-level dip if you don't have darkvision), however it is very expensive to get into (3 feats). The feats shadowdancer requires are not often helpful for a rogue. Mobility is useless since any melee rogue will get the tumble he needs. Combat reflexes can be helpful however with a low str a rogue is unlikely to be doing much tripping like a spiked chain fighter would. Dodge is just too weak, especially for a class thats defined by not being targetable.

1. Talk with the DM on his veiws of sneak attack and loss of dex bonus. By the RAW Hide will only help you get to your foes while thier flat footed. Being hidden in of itself does not let you rob you foes of thier dex bonus.

As I understand it, attacking while invisible and hiding are the same, however the combat modifiers section doesn't say. I like to use 'common sense' for this (I say that jokingly, since I know others will disagree with what common sense should be in this case). But if you want to be using hide (HiPS or sniping) to get sneaks you need to talk to the DM and make sure he agrees.

However I wouldn't recommend a rogue to use any strategy that only allows one sneak attack per round (sniping, HiPS, spring attack, etc) when his BAB reaches +6 or higher. Get a flanking position, or use a wand of grease and shoot them full of arrows (it will force them to make balance checks so they automatically lose dex to AC unless they have 5 or more balance ranks; see the balance skill description for details), they also won't be able to charge and risk falling prone.

COMBAT MODIFIERS
FAVORABLE AND UNFAVORABLE CONDITIONS

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is...               Melee     Ranged
Dazzled                      –1        –1
Entangled                    –2*       –2*
Flanking defender            +2        —
Invisible                    +2**      +2**
On higher ground             +1        +0
Prone                        –4        —***
Shaken or frightened         –2        –2
Squeezing through a space    –4        –4
* An entangled character also takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity, which may affect his attack roll.
** The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded.
*** Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combatModifiers.html

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hey, dudes. I find this discussion/debate about opposed checks and how many very interesting. I do not have much to add, but am genuinely curious: Elder-Basilisk and frankthedm, are both of your campaigns very tactical in nature, with lots of 'environmental factors' taken into account modifying checks? I think that type of game is perfectly legitimate (although not my cup of tea personally). I ask because if these detailed checks are standard for the skill-using characters (Rogues, Rangers, etc.) I would hope that similar factors affect your ranged combatants, and terrain is a major hinderance for melee types, etc. If *all* character archtypes have similar considerations, then no harm, no foul. But, if this type of stuff only affects skill-based characters, then the game would be tough for rogues!

Hmm. At the moment, I'm mostly running the RPGA's living campaigns--in my home game it probably won't be my turn to DM my campaign for a good six months or so. I do, however, do my best to use as many environmental factors as possible. While some DMs will simply say "you're in a forest; no charging" and put down a blank battlemap, I try to draw trees and undergrowth on the map and, if appropriate to put in elevation. If the PCs are travelling across the frozen trollfens, they'll be making balance checks to move more than half speed and when the flamestrike a troll, the troll might fall throught the weakened ice afterward.

I suppose it is tactical, but my main take on it is that it also tends to be more cinematic. In one fight, for instance, the party's dwarf cleric was tanking a pair or trolls while everyone else ran for cover. Since his armor made him pretty much unhittable, I had one troll grapple him, move him to a cliff, and make a third grapple check to throw him over. He then made a reflex save and caught onto a branch about fifteen feet down the slope. On his turn, he slung his shield, cast air walk, cast freedom of movement, pulled out another axe and walked back up to the fight. That's a lot more interesting and memorable than "I hit, you miss, etc." In one other battle, I had laid out a spiked pit in the middle of an arena so the dwarf bull-rushed one of my warmages into it. More memorable than using the heedless charge shock trooper ability, I'd say. In another one, I had a fight in the inn and the bard's player took a look at the setup and said: "OK, I move to here, jump onto those barrels, hop up onto the bannister, slide down and attack into the flank from higher ground." He had the skills to pull it off and it once again made for an interesting combat.

If I write another module, I think I'm going to take it as a personal challenge to include at least one hazard that makes bull rush useful and at least one opportunity for jump or balance to open up new options. It's just more interesting to fight group of monsters A in an interactive environment that affects the combat than to fight group of monsters A on a flat featureless plain.

I don't know if it effects everyone equally, but I think it makes things more fun in general.

FWIW, I am in Buzz's game, and while I agree with him that our group is not tactical to that extreme, even in our group, you are better as a combat specialist than as a social or sneaky character, because opposed checks and modifiers impact skill-usage *much* more often than terrain/weather/etc. affect combat ability. For instance, my ninja has a great Bluff check. But, his results are always modified by "believability". Now, that might be a reasonable modifier to apply (just as the noise, frequency, etc. might be valid against Hide and/or Move Silently). But, in practice it means that his very high Bluff nearly always fails, while his melee buddy continues to hit up a storm! So, the indirect lesson is: do not play a skillful character, instead just blow stuff up real good. Bummer, really.

Again, if *everybody* is affected by external factors it would all balance out. But, in my experience that is generally not the case. I suspect that might impact Buzz's perspective, where perhaps both frankthedm and E-B have more balanced game environmentals. What do y'all think?

 

[Tellerve]

In the game I dm I'm very similar to you Elder-Basilisk in making the environment interactive and alive. Much more cinematic.

And speaking of skills in combat, someone posted in the 2nd or 3rd post of this thread on using Sleight of Hand in combat. I've never heard/read about how to do that but the idea has always been there for me when I watch movies and the sneaky guy steals the amulet off of the bad guy while he is held in his arms. Or something similar. Is it really just a concentration check to avoid the AoO that the skill provokes and a Spot check to see it? Seems like a fairly easy thing to accomplish.

Tellerve

 

[buzz]

So they don't think everything they fight is thier caliber? Shlubs should not disappear when players level up. When the only orcs 9th level character see have levels, it starts to become a question of "why bother to level up?"

A good point, and one I agree with. I'm not saying only bother with fights at the PCs' EL; just deciding when a given scene, challenging or no, is worth bothering with.

 

[rowport]

...I do, however, do my best to use as many environmental factors as possible. ...I suppose it is tactical, but my main take on it is that it also tends to be more cinematic. ...If I write another module, I think I'm going to take it as a personal challenge to include at least one hazard that makes bull rush useful and at least one opportunity for jump or balance to open up new options. It's just more interesting to fight group of monsters A in an interactive environment that affects the combat than to fight group of monsters A on a flat featureless plain.

I don't know if it effects everyone equally, but I think it makes things more fun in general.

E-B-

Thanks for your reply! Yes, it sounds like you understood exactly what I meant, and confirmed that you have similar environmental factors affect all characters, not just skill-users. In that context, I think it is totally fine. (And, while it may not *always* have the similar impact on all characters, certainly it seems like you are applying the logic fairly, which is really all you could do as DM.) In fact, with your great descriptions going along with it, I think it could be very fun to play. If I implied some negativity about "tactical" considerations, I suspect that is because our group tends to say things like "the hindering terrain halves your base movement" instead of "you stumble and slide through the loose rock and sand, moving slowly despite your deperate need to drive forward".

 

[Mistwell]

I don't have the book, but I'd guess the +4 to hide is from being small.

It's not. It's in addition to the bonus from being small.

See:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3

 

[nittanytbone]

...did you purposely omit the "scout" archetype? How about the "face" archetype? Not to mention the "jack-of-all-trades" archetype?

Rogues have far more potential roles than any other core class.

I omit them because rogues aren't the best at those roles. Druids and wizards (with appropriate magic memorized) are superior scouts. Paladins and clerics make perfectly effective "faces." Paladins are especially strong diplomats as they can pick up several synergies with Diplomacy, and because "Detect Evil" is even better than bluff/sense motive, at least when you're negotiating in good faith.

As far as "jack-of-all-trades..." Any character should be able to fill at least two roles in a party (except maybe the fighter); spell casters can be a jack of any trade depending on what spells they've memorized for the day.

That leaves the two core rogue niches as trapfinding and sneak attacking.

 

[Tellerve]

It's not. It's in addition to the bonus from being small.

See:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3

Holy christmas, ok, they are a +1 LA creature right? Otherwise they are way too much I think for equal footing with other core races.

Tellerve