D&D 1E Giving an AD&D feel to 5e

overgeeked

B/X Known World
yeah...but how many people used squares or grid...I mean even official events by RPGA at Gen Con didn't use them.
I've played versions of D&D regularly for about 37 years with several hundred people in various home games, con games, etc...and I think in all that time there was one home game once that did not use a grid. And that was because the minis guy forgot to bring the box of minis.
 

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I started with white box D&D in '77...went to my first Gen Con in '79(XII)...and never played with mini's other than for party order. None of the Gen Con games I played used mini's. Quit playing D&D when 2nd came out...We've been using miniatures since I got back into D&D about 10 years ago...
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
But, the Horn is not hidden at all. It's pretty much the first tower anyone sees when entering the Keep. Why did everyone not bother going in there? I'll admit, I've never played this module. Fair enough. But, it's not hidden at all. Did you player routinely leave areas that were very easy to get to unexplored? Because that's a very different kind of player than I've ever had.

Here's a link to the map. The horn is in E. Am I missing something?

----

Sorry, but a thought occurred later on that I thought I'd add. I think this bit right here, with Lanefan and myself, illustrates some of the real difficulties in discussing earlier editions in anything but very broad terms. To me, the notion that you'd leave an unexplored area, right near the beginning of the adventure, just wouldn't happen. We were Greyhawking ie. strip mining modules LONG before that term became popular in Living Greyhawk. How could you avoid encounters? You never knew where the really good treasure was, but, dollars to donuts, the presence of some tentacled beasty was a pretty good indicator. :D

But, in all fairness, I don realize that there are others that didn't play this way. I guess the point I've been trying to make through this though, is that WE DID. Not because we were munchkins or Monty Haul or anything like that, but, because, it made the most sense to us to do so.
Never played the module...but I've always been a SWAT team style check every room before proceeding kind of player....definitely in videogames...
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Almost everyone I knew played Theater of the Mind...including Gen Con games...
When I was a kid we used a checker board ... with chess pieces to cover the miniatures we did not own (which were most of them). Later I painted a proper-scale grid on a table.

The only 1E games I played without a grid were the first few I played.
 

\
When I was a kid we used a checker board ... with chess pieces to cover the miniatures we did not own (which were most of them). Later I painted a proper-scale grid on a table.

The only 1E games I played without a grid were the first few I played.
I remember using m&ms/skittles & graph paper, they didn't fit in the boxes right but nobody really cared too much. Put a bite mark indent on one edge to indicate your shield side except for monsters "cause it would be gross" :D
 

S'mon

Legend
I never saw a grid used until 3e.

You can't 'legally' use a grid for 1e AD&D combat as written, it uses different scales for lateral vs frontal - 1" = 10' on the dungeon scale, but three figures side to side in a 10' corridor, more like 3" = 10'.
 


Hussar

Legend
1e DMG (pp.69-70) covers facing, flanking, and position on the tabletop grid - both square and hex.
Kinda, sorta. The grid and hex were there for examples, not as actual game rules. As is usual for 1e rules, the figures actually contradict the rules. Only 6 medium creatures can attack a single medium target, but, the grid they show allows for 8 attackers. Additionally, only 4 large creatures could attack a medium creature, which makes the whole flanking thing really wonky - is a large baddy in your front flank or rear flank, for example.

IOW, there really wasn't rules for using a grid. Particularly considering the illustration actually rotates the grid used - which makes it even more complicated.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I never saw a grid used until 3e.

You can't 'legally' use a grid for 1e AD&D combat as written, it uses different scales for lateral vs frontal - 1" = 10' on the dungeon scale, but three figures side to side in a 10' corridor, more like 3" = 10'.
If your table grid is drawn in 2-inch squares, you can do it just fine using old-school metal minis that have smaller bases as three of them will (usually) fit across a 2-inch (meaning 10') hall.

The newfangled plastic minis with the big bases are a nuisance for this, however.
 

S'mon

Legend
If your table grid is drawn in 2-inch squares, you can do it just fine using old-school metal minis that have smaller bases as three of them will (usually) fit across a 2-inch (meaning 10') hall.

The newfangled plastic minis with the big bases are a nuisance for this, however.

Interesting - I don't think I've seen a 2" grid!
Back in the Day here in UK Games Workshop put 28mm metal minis on 2 cm square bases, so you could almost have got 3 across a 2"/5cm corridor. But GW's own dungeon floorplans used a 2 cm = 5' scale so too narrow.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Interesting - I don't think I've seen a 2" grid!
Back in the Day here in UK Games Workshop put 28mm metal minis on 2 cm square bases, so you could almost have got 3 across a 2"/5cm corridor. But GW's own dungeon floorplans used a 2 cm = 5' scale so too narrow.
We put our own grid on a chalkboard using indelible-ink felt pens*. Half an afternoon's work that you only have to do once, 'cause it lasts for a lifetime. 2-inch grid, 10' squares, works like a hot damn.

Then during play, when it's needed either I draw the map on the board (using chalk, of course) or the players do from my description.

* - a simple ballpoint pen works too, but it doesn't have the same staying power and eventually needs to be re-done.
 

I never used mini in BECMI, 1ed or 2ed. We started using them in 3.xed. I did have mini that I used to paint, but they were not for playing.

We used exclusively TotM for our games. I much prefer it that way, it less of an hassle and the game moves much faster as players do not pause and ponder how to move and what would be the optimal path on the grid.

With the covid and our play on Discord and Messenger, we went for TotM for our online games. The "professional" programs require too much prep time for me so I convinced my younger players to go for TotM and guess what? They like it because is is really faster this way. As long as I keep giving a few attacks of opportunity here and there, it will be fine.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Kinda, sorta. The grid and hex were there for examples, not as actual game rules. As is usual for 1e rules, the figures actually contradict the rules. Only 6 medium creatures can attack a single medium target, but, the grid they show allows for 8 attackers. Additionally, only 4 large creatures could attack a medium creature, which makes the whole flanking thing really wonky - is a large baddy in your front flank or rear flank, for example.
No, the diagrams don't contradict the rules. Get out your 1e DMG and look it up, for cryin' out loud.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Love Minis. I own probably over 1000 of them, many of the first were from 1980. Played AD&D from 81 to 2012 as my go-to game. Only ever used minis for marching order 99% of the time until we moved to 5e and then started using a grid.
 

cbwjm

Legend
I remember using minis, or something to stand in for them, back when I first started playing DnD. This was mainly due to the thunder rift series of adventures which had grid maps of the dungeon for playing on. Much of what we did outside of those was theatre of mind though, I never had enough cash to get into minis and now I don't have enough room to keep them even if I did start buying them.
 

Hussar

Legend
If your table grid is drawn in 2-inch squares, you can do it just fine using old-school metal minis that have smaller bases as three of them will (usually) fit across a 2-inch (meaning 10') hall.

The newfangled plastic minis with the big bases are a nuisance for this, however.
Except when you start getting into the "Space Required" rules in the PHB. Sure, 3 minis might fit in a 2 inch square, but, if they're using longswords, they can't. Depends on what weapon is being used.
 

Hussar

Legend
No, the diagrams don't contradict the rules. Get out your 1e DMG and look it up, for cryin' out loud.
I was looking directly at the DMG as I wrote that. In the section RIGHT ABOVE where the diagrams are, it tells you specifically that only 6 medium creatures can attack a single medium target. Yet, the diagram shows a single target being attacked by 8 creatures. And for some reason, you can rotate the grid as well. :erm: Never minding that there are no clarifications for 4 large targets attacking a medium. If I'm half in something's front and half in it's flank, does the target retain it's shield bonus? If I'm half in the rear and half on the flank, does it get it's Dex bonus?

If you're going to take me to task for reading the rules, at least have the decency to look up the rules first.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I was looking directly at the DMG as I wrote that. In the section RIGHT ABOVE where the diagrams are, it tells you specifically that only 6 medium creatures can attack a single medium target. Yet, the diagram shows a single target being attacked by 8 creatures. And for some reason, you can rotate the grid as well. :erm: Never minding that there are no clarifications for 4 large targets attacking a medium. If I'm half in something's front and half in it's flank, does the target retain it's shield bonus? If I'm half in the rear and half on the flank, does it get it's Dex bonus?

If you're going to take me to task for reading the rules, at least have the decency to look up the rules first.
I did. You’re looking at the diagrams on page 69, but not reading about them. They aren’t telling you how many figures can attack as much as helping you determine direction and how that relates to the target. Those spaces may be filled by creatures the same size, smaller, or larger. And when they do attack, the diagram will help you adjudicate what AC and modifiers to use. They’re not contradicting the text.
 

Hussar

Legend
No, they don't. Because the squares diagrams would allow 8 medium creatures to attack a single medium creature. Which is a direct contradiction of the text. If it was direction, then why bother with a grid at all? If the diagrams were delineating direction, then simple rays from the target would show that.

But, while the hex diagram is accurate, the grid is not.
 


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