Giving players narrative control: good bad or indifferent?

[KiloGex]

I wouldn't consider this giving control over to the players, because that would insinuate that I have control over everything in the first place. I think it's presumptuous to say that I, as the GM, control everything that goes on within the game. Yes, I could have control over everything that happens and just tell the players what is going on, but then what is the point of the RP aspect of the game? I might just as well tell them what happens in between combats?

I quite often have my players dictate what their characters do, and sometimes it does interrupt the narrative that I have set forth. I have simply learned to not plan too far ahead. Ultimately, it really all depends on your group dynamic and what your goal of the game is: For me, its character development through RP and group building, while others may be to reach the next level and grow through combat. If one of my players knows that cutting through the back end of the building will lead him to an alleyway that meets up with the main road, then more power to him.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

Well the Original example might be player agency (and was intended to be a clear, if small, example of such) the player was "creating" a route or shortcut where none existed before (at least in the mind and notes of the DM. You can easily argue it "always" existed in the actual setting). The question is: is it really new? is the player just "finding" vs. creating?

Look at the kobayashi maru discussion earlier in the thread. I think this is a clear example of handling (and even perceiving) the situation in different ways. I think different approaches that fit people's playstyles have really been showcased in this thread!

Wait, I lost it again. The player isn't changing the world because no world is static. The player is deciding that the character has prior knowledge of the shortcut. If the character is with in the bounds of the player and this is what is called character agency, then isn't the example a case of character agency? Because player agency would for-go the character all together?

I still think it's a bit silly to split these agency terms up when the player is the definitive ingredient in both.

 

[Mort]

Wait, I lost it again. The player isn't changing the world because no world is static. The player is deciding that the character has prior knowledge of the shortcut. If the character is with in the bounds of the player and this is what is called character agency, then isn't the example a case of character agency? Because player agency would for-go the character all together?

I still think it's a bit silly to split these agency terms up when the player is the definitive ingredient in both.

Again the player might be changing the world (say the DM had no path before etc.).

It is absolutely clear cut with the fate point-cart example because you can't enterpret that as anything but player narrative control (I think it's easier and more clear cut in general in systems with clear and defined fate point mechanics)- but there are plenty of cases (as seen in this thread) where it might or might not be depending on how it's presented and how the DM (and player) chooses to handle it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If you're referring to the map as a draconian reality, then yeah not allowing for player suggestion is pretty unreasonable isn't it.

This word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Here I am at work. It would be Friday and time for game night right now if it weren't for that draconian calendar.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a stealth roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: time and space rolls over and takes a nap, you realize the town is only 10 miles down the road.

 

[Mort]

This word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Here I am at work. It would be Friday and time for game night right now if it weren't for that draconian calendar.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a stealth roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: time and space rolls over and takes a nap, you realize the town is only 10 miles down the road.

You know - depending on system and setting this is not nearly as immutable as you're presenting (I know that's not your point btw but it just struck me). Player narrative control may or may not apply.

with Player Narrative control:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I got a fate point stored up just for this occasion can I use it to reduce the distance to 10 miles?
DM: There's a teleportation circle that your character remembers just 10 miles for there that should get you exactly where you need to go!

with no Player Narrative control:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I want to do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: You know that 10 miles away lies a teleportation portal you should be able to gain access to which should get you exactly where you need to go!

Now, is this a bit extreme? maybe, but I've seen similar. And hopefuly it illustrates the point (if nothing else it shows when playing a fantasy/sci-fi game laws of time and space are not laws but merely mutable guidelines).

 

[Nagol]

You know - depending on system and setting this is not nearly as immutable as you're presenting (I know that's not your point btw but it just struck me). Player narrative control may or may not apply.

with Player Narrative control:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I got a fate point stored up just for this occasion can I use it to reduce the distance to 10 miles?
DM: There's a teleportation circle that your character remembers just 10 miles for there that should get you exactly where you need to go!

with no Player Narrative control:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I want to do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: You know that 10 miles away lies a teleportation portal you should be able to gain access to which should get you exactly where you need to go!

Now, is this a bit extreme? maybe, but I've seen similar. And hopefuly it illustrates the point (if nothing else it shows when playing a fantasy/sci-fi game laws of time and space are not laws but merely mutable guidelines).

An equally incontestable resolution for a player without narrative control is the following:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I want to do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: Yep, you're certain the town is 21 miles away. If you want to get there faster, you'll have be inventive! What sort of impressive thing are you planning, an all-night march at a run, or do you have some form of magic to use?

 

[Mort]

An equally incontestable resolution for a player without narrative control is the following:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I want to do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: Yep, you're certain the town is 21 miles away. If you want to get there faster, you'll have be inventive! What sort of impressive thing are you planning, an all-night march at a run, or do you have some form of magic to use?

Absolutely true. That's actually one of my gripes with mid-high level 3e. It's hard to find a a situation of the above nature (and many more like it) where the group actually has to be inventive and will not have an immediate 6 second solution.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Now you guys have got me thinking about that Roger Zelazny novel where the heroes take a shortcut through the "missing socks" dimension.

 

[billd91]

An equally incontestable resolution for a player without narrative control is the following:

Player: How far is it to the next town?
DM; Well, based on this draconian map about 20 miles or so.
Player: Thats too far, I want to do something impressive to get there in 10 miles.
DM: Sure. Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: WOOT!! a 30!!
DM: Yep, you're certain the town is 21 miles away. If you want to get there faster, you'll have be inventive! What sort of impressive thing are you planning, an all-night march at a run, or do you have some form of magic to use?

I think a far more pleasant way to handle this than anything so far is:

Player: We need some supplies. How far to the nearest town?
DM: Based on your map, about 20 miles or so.
Player: Hmmm, maps often gloss over smaller settlements. I want to use my geography skill to see if I know of any smaller hamlets.
DM: Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: I got a 30.
DM: You know of a few starting about 10 miles from here and then about every 2 miles thereafter until you hit town. You'll be able to find food, shelter, and bandage supplies, but no luck on the potions you want.

I know this the Internet, but not every example used in debate needs to be hyperbolic.

 

[Janx]

I think a far more pleasant way to handle this than anything so far is:

Player: We need some supplies. How far to the nearest town?
DM: Based on your map, about 20 miles or so.
Player: Hmmm, maps often gloss over smaller settlements. I want to use my geography skill to see if I know of any smaller hamlets.
DM: Gimmie a geography roll.
Player: I got a 30.
DM: You know of a few starting about 10 miles from here and then about every 2 miles thereafter until you hit town. You'll be able to find food, shelter, and bandage supplies, but no luck on the potions you want.

I know this the Internet, but not every example used in debate needs to be hyperbolic.

Good example. The player asked if something existed or not. The DM decided it was plausible and made a check to see if it was actual.

That's not the same thing as the player invoking a rule that let's him declare that something exists and the GM can't really stop him.

In the case of these so-called immutable maps, none of you posess a game map that I can't find some detail that probably exists in the actual game space that the game map does not cover.

That detail is then subject to the concept of the clarifying and leading question that a PC may then ask about which then requires the GM to determine a response.

Responding "No" to every one of those questions would probably be ridiculous or kneejerky.

Responding "Yes" to every one of those questions would probably be silly and unrealistic.