GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?

[Rechan]

If I haven't figured this out in advance, I'm an idiot, and if I'm a professional game designer and I don't take such things into account, I make my customers act idiotically.

So now those of us who don't need "Speaks Far Realms" act like idiots?

 

[Rechan]

Ultimately, this strikes me as just two polarized views on how the game works.

To illustrate, I'll give an example. I ran a single session for what I thought would be a new group. During the session, the PCs were on a ship and attacked by a giant sea monster.

I described the monster's head, when it emerged, simply biting a nameless NPC in half.

The players were upset that I did not roll an attack roll for the monster to kill the nameless NPC, and suddenly the monster had developed the power to bite people in half.

To them, I was just changing the rules and exerting DM power without following The Rules, I was just cheating because I wanted something to happen.

To me, it was flavor text and I was doing it for narrative purposes, to emphasize how dangerous and nasty this thing was, to emphasize how powerful the PCs were in comparison to some nameless NPC, and for again, story purposes. I was waving my hand because the NPC wasn't important, but anything that is important (namely the PCs) deserves some sort of roll.

The issue is not who is right. And no matter what, even after we argued over this, neither of us had convinced one another. Because it's indicative of the style, the assumptions of How a Game is Ran that we bring to the table. It's preference.

This thread (and many like it) are an indication that different styles and Beliefs about how the Game is Ran, how it Works. None of us are going to budge on our style. We can argue until we're blue in the face whether it should be or it shouldn't be, but it's moot.

4e caters to one style and assumption, and not to another. That's it at the end of the day. And it's not going to change. It's designed from the ground up, by the people who run it, to facilitate one style and not another.

 

[Wicht]

And what stats are necessary to be used outside of combat?

In 4e if the villain has a high bluff/intimidate skill it notes it. Its perception skills are listed. So any skill the PCs used in interaction would be noted.

What other stats are important for non-combat interaction?

For instance, the statblock for the villain in Burnt Offerings lists her Ride skill. Considering she's in the bottom of the dungeon with no mounts in sight, and escape is next to impossible... ride is going to be relevant how?

I could probably come up with half a dozen possibilities for her riding somewhere if I really want to. Perhaps the PCs decide they want to bluff their way into her good graces, discern what her plan is and then thwart her. So they get on her good side, she tells them to find horses and they all will ride to attack Sandpoint. Along the way the PCs decide its gone far enough and attack. Suddenly its important to know how good she is on a horse. There you have ride and its being used in combat even.

In this same scenario, the PCs are with her in the dungeon, helping to excavate and the lights go out. With an annoyed mutter she brings forth daylight. There you have a "useless" ability on the stat block and its used outside of combat.

Again the point is, it may not be necessary for your game, but don't begrudge others. Its uncharitable to tell people they don't need what you don't want.

And this is somehow expected to be the norm? Your DM obviously changed the module so your character could be her brother. You wouldn't have known about it had the DM not changed the story. The module says nothing about being related to her. I am talking about what the module says, not how your DM changed it.

The module says nothing about if PCs want to parlay, and in her writeup, everything it says on the page with her stats is purely about what she's doing and why she's doing it when the PCs show up. No indication is given that she even wants to talk - in fact, the writeup says that if she suspects combat is imminent, what buffs she casts on herself.

And your point about PCs just so willing to talk before initiative is rolled can equally be applied to Kalarel in the 4e module. My point is that we know nothing about either villain, and either villain is just stuck in the last room of the dungeon and awaits the PCs to kick in the door and say Hello. MY point is that one has a huge story around her, one has none, but neither module uses this for involving the PCs.

And again you are wrong. Burnt Offerings contains numerous clues as to what she is doing and why and its right there for the PCs to find. There;s a notebook in the glass factory with plenty of clues including some risque pictures. There's her own writings. There's goblins to interogate, henchman tht can be interrogated. etc.

Aside from that, in the game aforementioned, I was the DM and I did not change anything in the story by giving her a long lost brother. She was an orphan raised by a priest. I simply went further and because my son wanted to be an Aasimar cleric, I thought it was a good chance to tie his back story and hers together and further cement the character into the already written storyline. The details in the module helped do that and I didn't change a single element of her background to accomplish it. What I did was provide motivation for the PC to hunt for Nualia. Which is waht a good DM should do. But the richness of the module helped provide that motivation and thats why its a good module.

 

[Rechan]

Objection! Not all stats are combat stats.

4e lacks non-combat stats.

Any skill the NPC is trained in goes in at the bottom of their statblock. If they are not trained in it, you use their ability modifier, which is at the bottom of the statblock. Skills are the only stats that can be used outside of combat.

So if the only stats that exist are combat stats... then what's the problem of having a statblock consist of stats?

Everything else relevant to the NPC goes in text about the NPC. Anything relating to numbers and dice go in another. Both of these are for ease of look up.

 

[darjr]

4e lacks non-combat stats.

Any skill the NPC is trained in goes in at the bottom of their statblock. If they are not trained in it, you use their ability modifier, which is at the bottom of the statblock. Skills are the only stats that can be used outside of combat.

So if the only stats that exist are combat stats... then what's the problem of having a statblock consist of stats?

Everything else relevant to the NPC goes in text about the NPC. Anything relating to numbers and dice go in another. Both of these are for ease of look up.

eh... there are quite a few things in 4e monster stat blocks that could be useful outside of combat.

 

[Rechan]

eh... there are quite a few things in 4e monster stat blocks that could be useful outside of combat.

Combat stats could be used outside of combat. But they're useful in combat, hence why they're there.

 

[Hussar]

I could probably come up with half a dozen possibilities for her riding somewhere if I really want to. Perhaps the PCs decide they want to bluff their way into her good graces, discern what her plan is and then thwart her. So they get on her good side, she tells them to find horses and they all will ride to attack Sandpoint. Along the way the PCs decide its gone far enough and attack. Suddenly its important to know how good she is on a horse. There you have ride and its being used in combat even.

This is why these conversations go downhill so quickly.

Are you honestly going to claim that this is a likely outcome? Not only is this a likely event, but, likely to succeed? I mean, your party would have to first successfully bluff her, manage to convince her of their intentions, THEN the DM would have to contrive to send them on this specific mission WHILE she accompanies them, on horseback and THEN they have to decide to attack her at that specific point in time.

This is why we need her ride skill? :/

I know it's impossible for some to claim that there are any points of comparison between 4e and anything else, but, come on. It's not the end of the world to admit that 3e creatures are over statted. Even during 3e, the designers, including Paizo designers I might add, admitted that 3e monsters were over statted and that was the reason there were so many stat block mistakes.

 

[Rechan]

All right. I think I get it. Let me try to facilitate both sides.

Centaur Cavalier Level 18 Soldier
Large Fey Humanoid XP 2,000
Initiative +15, Senses Perception +16, low-light vision
Smell of the Barn; Aura 1 - the air around the centaur cavalier smells like hay. This has no effect.
HP 172; Bloodied 86
AC 34, Fortitude 31, Reflex 29, Will 30
Speed 8

Bastard sword (standard, at-will) Weapon
+24 vs AC; 1d10+6 damage, plus 1d6 damage while charging. Effect: Target is marked until the end of the centaur cavalier's next turn.

Quick Kick (immediate reaction, when a creature moves into a space where it flanks the centaur cavalier, at-will)
Targets the triggering creature; +25 vs. AC; 1d6+6 damage.

Sugar Cubes
The Centaur Cavalier loves sugar cubes, and will always accept them when offered outside of combat. In combat, the centaur cavalier's behavior will not change, but he will loot the sugar cubes post combat.

Allergic to Strawberries and Bees
Strawberries cause flatulence in the Centaur Cavalier, and bee stings result in hives. This has no mechanical effect.

Left Handed
When offered a handshake, the Centaur Cavalier will present the left hand to shake.

Fear of Heights
The Centaur Cavalier does not like heights, and will be nervous in areas with heights. This does not have any mechanical effect or alters behavior, but just the personality of the cavalier in the presence of heights.

Must Lead
During any sort of dance, the Centaur Cavalier has to be the lead.

Gambling Debts
The Centaur Cavalier has gambling debts.

Self Conscious About Education
The Centaur Cavalier dropped out of Centaur High-school. He is self conscious about his scholatic efforts. This has no mechanical effect on any knowledge skills or interactions.

Likes Brunettes
The Centaur Cavalier is attracted to brunettes. This does not impact any skill checks made by brunettes, merely a personal preference of the Centaur Cavalier.

Snores
The Centaur Cavalier snores.

Recurring Dream
The Centaur Cavalier has a recurring dream where he is a butterfly. He has told no one of this.

Alignment: Unaligned. Some times the Centaur cavalier is inclined to good behavior, such as when interacting with children or small fuzzy animals or during spring time, but other times (such as when just waking or towards those who talk during movies) the Centaur Cavalier is inclined to evil. But in general the Centaur Cavalier considers himself "neutral" and behaves as such.
Language: Elven, Twin Language (The Centaur Cavalier has a twin, and the two can communicate with their own language. The Centaur cavalier's twin is not present.)
Skills: Athletics +20, Insight +16, Nature +16, Underwater Basketweaving +2, Riverdancing +18, Centaur Cavalier's Family History and Geneology +20, Carrot Growing +28,
Str 23 (+15) Dex 19 (+13) Wis 14 (+11)
Con 20 (+14) Int 11 (+9) Cha 21 (+14)
Equipment chainmail, light shield, bastard sword, pocket full of gambling debts, pouch of sugar cubes, bag of carrots, allergy medication, pocket lint, gum wrapper (cinnamon), four horse shoes.

There. Now the Centaur Cavalier's statblock accommodates contingencies such as if the PCs challenge the enemy to a dance off, if the PCs have a tea party, or if the PCs invite the Centaur Cavalier to a sleep over or wish to travel with the centaur cavalier.

 

[Lanefan]

On a broader note, one of the things a module designer kinda has to take into account (and thus write in anticipation of) is things turning out differently than the writer has envisioned.

I've found this to be the most time-consuming part of the process, on the few occasions where I've bothered to write out a homebrew module in full - all the "what ifs". But it has to be done! And yes, it can mean a much higher page count...

Perhaps the biggest beef I have with the various canned modules I've run is that things like room descriptions (almost) always assume the party is entering from a certain direction and in a certain way - which is great if there's only one possible way into the room. But if there's a choice, a surprisingly high amount of the time the module's description does not suit how they enter at all; and so I'm left trying to reskin the boxed description on the fly. Doesn't affect prep time, but it sure disrupts the flow of the game if I'm not thinking on my feet.

And other "what ifs" need to be at least waved at. My current favourite example is Keep on the Shadowfell, particularly the last room where they meet Kalarel. It seems the writer either did not think of the following questions or deliberately ignored them:
- What if the party take longer than a few days to get to Kalarel?* (the whole time thing is never really detailed but the impression is there's a time limit, which itself is then left undefined)
- What if the party try to attack or shoot the Thing in the portal?* (it has no stats)
- What if the party want to finish opening the portal?* And how do they?*
- What if the party want to try closing the portal?* And how do they?*
- What if the party decide to pry up the grilles where the blood drains away and see where the drains lead?

Now it's of course absolutely true that while a DM can and should be able to provide the answer to all these (when I ran it I had to for all the ones marked '*', as my party did/tried all those things), if I'm using a canned module it's because I expect it to among other things do that sort of lifting for me.

Lan-"strength 20 but I still prefer if others do the heavy lifting"-efan

 

[Wicht]

I find it semi amusing that despite the general agreement that there are different play styles and thus different desires when it comes to stat blocks, it seems hard for some to admit that others might genuinely enjoy slighty longer, more detailed stat blocks.

If you like short stat blocks I'm happy for you. I on the other hand, enjoy being prepared for some contingencies. It doesn't matter how likely or unlikely you think any given piece of information is going to be used, to the person who uses it - it was useful.