GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?

Okay.

DMG1, Templates: pages 175 through 182.
DMG1, Class Templates: pages 182 through 183.
DMG1, Creating Monsters: pages 184 through 185.
DMG1, Creating NPCs: pages 186 through 188.
DMG2, Customizing Monsters: pages 102 through 133..

Oh, I'm quite aware of these methods which IMO can be pretty much boiled down to... slap a template on it... but these in no way give one the diversity in customizing monsters and NPC's that was available in 3.x. I was asking for the rules that allowed one to slap any class (since we still don't have templates for PHB 3... or the artificer), or paragon class on any NPC or monster. Where are the rules for giving monsters/NPC's feats? In fact is there even a detailed system for assigning powers or skills to NPC's or monsters (besides just eyeball it) in 4e? I'm genuinely curious.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Where are the rules for giving monsters/NPC's feats? In fact is there even a detailed system for assigning powers or skills to NPC's or monsters (besides just eyeball it) in 4e? I'm genuinely curious.

While I'm interested in trying 4E as a player, this is the very reason why I wouldn't DM it. The system is very well-balanced, but it's rather curious that 4E lacks solid monster design rules. I mean, if I create unique powers, how can I be sure they're balanced? For example, is it okay to give Domination to, say, 4th level controllers? At which level would a power that Stuns (save ends) be appropriate, and can I give it to a brute? Or should Stun always last until the end of the monster's next turn? How many powers are "too much"? Which ones should be minor actions, and is there a formula to which recharge and which are standard actions? And the biggest question that's bothered me... how do you even decide the 'recharge number'? Which powers recharge only on a 6? And which powers shouldn't recharge "automatically", e.g. such as when the monster becomes bloodied? And so on. :confused:

If I need to "eyeball" through several books just to get a single monster's powers approximately "right", I don't think it's worth it.

What WoTC should definitely do is to release solid, level-based guidelines to building monsters, i.e. a list of how the powers should be built ('Stun (save ends) - 15th level - Controller and Striker'). It would be even better if it was point-based or utilized at least *some* sort of formula. Anyway, that's how I feel and it's kept at least me from running the game.
 

I call bull on this, the only way a 3e melee attacker monster/NPC has fewer options than a 4e melee attacker monster/NPC is if you disregard the application of classes, feats, prestige classes, etc. when designing it. Otherwise it becomes a matter of number of options being relatively scalable in 3e to how much effort one is willing to put into personalizing the monster.

Oh, so in 3e you custom-craft every single damn monster you use. In 4e you are mysteriously not allowed to custom-craft monsters. Great double-standards there. And in 3e you seem to want to operate above the level where many think it breaks down (see E6 for details).

You can't have it both ways: Either 4th Edition stat blocks feature more options for monsters or they feature fewer options for monsters. Make up your mind.

Or you can break 3e monsters into four groups. Physical Combat, Wizard/Sorceror, Cleric/Druid, Specials.

Physical Combat monkeys in 3e are mechanically boring. They also make up the overwhelming bulk of monsters in 3e.

CoDzillas and Wizards/Sorcerors have hordes of options. The same options as every other CoDzilla or Wizard/Sorceror in the game. And the spellcasting puts their special features in the shade

Specials have a number of Sp or Su powers or other tricks - differentiating them from both specialist casters and physical combat monkies. And from each other And they are the rarest category.

4e monsters are all either minions or specials. And far more kinetic and kinaesthetic than 3e specials.

What we're talking about is the interaction between NPCs and PCs. You, like Noonan, are apparently equating "things happening outside of combat" with "time the PCs aren't interacting with the NPCs".

The middle that you're falsely excluding is that many of us run adventures that aren't combat slogs. Stuff happens outside of combat. The actions of NPCs are not limited to 5 rounds of combat and "they're done".

The thing here is that there are three types of NPC action outside combat. Offstage they don't need stats. In opposed skill checks, there's no reason for them not to simply take 10 every time - it doesn't do much to the maths and does speed up play. And if they are going to take 10 every time, it's as sensible to simply grade their opposition as Easy, Medium, or Hard (using the Skill Challenge table). And if you're running a narrative focus, an individual skill roll of an NPC should almost never be critical.

And when you're doing that, you don't need much other than their special and combat powers in the statblock.

Then why did you describe Noonan's claim that NPCs exist only in combat a being a "truthful statement"?

When an actor leaves the stage does the character continue to exist? There's a good argument that the answer is no.

Each round each NPC has to select an action. If there are 5 NPCs using the same stat block and 5 rounds, then 25 actions have to be selected from that stat block.

And if the monsters don't select the same action more than once they are almost incoherent.

But you seem to assume that the same action twice doesn't have different meanings. Pushing someone one square means something very different when they are (a) on the far side of the room from a pit, (b) two squares away from a pit, or (c) right next to a pit.

There might be a couple of abilities out there where two identical creatures have to cooperate to achieve a particular effect (which would be analogous to everyone in the car participating in the same activity), but they're the exception to the rule.

So flanking is now an exception to the rule? For that matter, so is pushing when there's dangerous terrain?

Let's take Keep on the Shadowfell. There are 14 encounters 5+ copies of the same monster (On the Road, A2, A3, Area 4, Area 5, Area 7, Area 9, Area 10, Interlude 3, Area 12, Area 13, Area 17, Area 18, Area 19); there are 6 encounters with 3-4 copies (A1, A4, Area 2, Area 3, Area 6, Area 14); and only 4 encounters without 3+ duplicate stat blocks (Area 1, Area 8, Area 11, Area 15).

That's a 5:1 ratio of 3+ duplicates to non-duplicate encounters.

When you know enough about 4e to know what a minion is, get back to us. For that matter, when you know enough about narrative to understand the purpose of a redshirt bad guy get back to us. Until then,

Sure. And since there's no difference in the amount of mechanical support for diverse encounters between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, that particular issue is essentially irrelevant.

You mean other than the kinetic combat, the ease of running (due to the stripped down stat blocks), the assumption you'll be facing multiple foes, etc.?

The kinetic combat in 4e on its own makes things far more interesting. In 3e if there's a cliff, it's easy. People don't go near it. In 4e, everyone is trying to push everyone else over as well as trying to defeat them normally. (I exaggerate slightly. But about half of all PCs in my experience have an at will that forces movement. And if there's a cliff, the NPCs are also likely to force movement. It adds entire extra dimensions to the combat.)

But what I'm talking about the tactical flexibility which comes from a single stat block. Encounter build only becomes important in pointing out one of three separate flaws in Noonan's argument, and even then the diversity of encounter build is not important -- only the presence of multiple instances of a single stat block in a single encounter (which has been amply demonstrated above).

There is nothing wrong with multiple instances of a single stat block - especially for faceless mooks. It's when there's only one stat block that's the trouble.

And you demonstrated that there were repeated minions - did you also demonstrate that all the monsters in a combat used the same stat block?
 

Our 3.x Bugbear already has a morningstar basic attack... now for one of his racial feats lets give him power attk... he can now deal extra damage anytime he wants by taking a reduced chance to hit. He also has a ranged attack with the javelins... so we're already at three different options by just switching a feat out... a regular attk, power attk and ranged attk. On top of this he can implicitly grapple, trip, feint, sunder, bull rush, charge, disarm, overrun etc. I'm not understanding how your 4e Bugbear has more options in combat by the rules?
Well, if you're going to tinker with the stat block by swapping out one of the 3e bugbear's feats, I should similarly be able to give the 4e bugbear warrior a javelin (and a ranged attack).

In addition, a 4e bugbear warrior can also (implicitly) grab, bull rush, charge and feint (see the Bluff skill). That leaves tripping, sundering, disarming and overrunning as actions for which there are no generic rules in the 4e ruleset, so I guess you win on a technicality. I must admit that I personally hardly ever took these actions in a fight, unless I was running a character or monster which was specially designed to use them (in particular, the AOO was a major psychological barrier), but you are technically correct that almost any creature could, in theory, use these options in combat.

EDIT: Suddenly, I want to write a bad 4e module about a gang of bugbear warriors who are not tripping, sundering, disarming or overrunning. :p
 
Last edited:

I can easily recall discussions of how CR breaks down in 3e, where I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, it was a great, robust, tool, etc. Now, the worm has turned.

I suspect that when 5e is announced, we will be able to discuss the problems of 4e. In fact, I would suspect that some of the folks who stick with 4e will be surprised how some outspoken champions of 4e now are commenting on the obvious flaws then.

And, when 6e is announced, we'll be able to take a closer look at 5e.

And so on.

Something doesn't have to be old to be viewed through rose-coloured glasses. 4e has flaws, just as Pathfinder has flaws, just as 3e has flaws, just as 1e has flaws, just as all games have flaws. Talking about them openly can, in some cases, help the designers improve the model. For example, I am told that the later monster books for 4e are much better than the initial MM......A direct result of noting the flaws of the earlier book?



RC
 
Last edited:

While I'm interested in trying 4E as a player, this is the very reason why I wouldn't DM it. The system is very well-balanced, but it's rather curious that 4E lacks solid monster design rules. I mean, if I create unique powers, how can I be sure they're balanced? For example, is it okay to give Domination to, say, 4th level controllers? At which level would a power that Stuns (save ends) be appropriate, and can I give it to a brute? Or should Stun always last until the end of the monster's next turn? How many powers are "too much"? Which ones should be minor actions, and is there a formula to which recharge and which are standard actions? And the biggest question that's bothered me... how do you even decide the 'recharge number'? Which powers recharge only on a 6? And which powers shouldn't recharge "automatically", e.g. such as when the monster becomes bloodied? And so on. :confused:

If I need to "eyeball" through several books just to get a single monster's powers approximately "right", I don't think it's worth it.

What WoTC should definitely do is to release solid, level-based guidelines to building monsters, i.e. a list of how the powers should be built ('Stun (save ends) - 15th level - Controller and Striker'). It would be even better if it was point-based or utilized at least *some* sort of formula. Anyway, that's how I feel and it's kept at least me from running the game.

Really? The openess and freeform nature of monster design is one of the things I actually like about 4E. NPC's and monsters can be built to do what they need to do without a reverse step by step reconstruction kit. The 3E era added a great deal of crunch and mechanical formula to the game but I think many DM's came to rely too much on these constructs rather than their own judgement and common sense.

I have been designing monsters and NPC's for 30 years and the rules (even 3.X) have never been a barrier to making what I wanted. When it comes to monster design, 4E gives enough general guidelines to enable the DM to build pretty much anything he/she wants.

Precise formulas are waste of time when the content of the game is ever changing. New rules are added, changed, updated, and new content is pouring in on a regular basis. Each time these things happen a carefully calculated formula would be rendered uselees and require adjustment.

I can sympathize with not wanting to run 4E. I didn't either for a long while for different reasons. Look at all those rules and formulas for 3.X. Do they really work in all situations? Have they ever produced an encounter that was perfect on paper but far too tough or easy in actual play?
 

I was asking for the rules that allowed one to slap any class (since we still don't have templates for PHB 3... or the artificer), or paragon class on any NPC or monster.
You have the templates for the other classes...base it on those. Unless you want to argue that whenever they publish a new class, suddenly you can no longer completely customize monsters.

Where are the rules for giving monsters/NPC's feats?
There aren't any, largely because 4E feats are different from 3E feats. They are generally small modifiers and bonuses. If you want to apply some modifiers and bonuses to your monster, just do it.

In fact is there even a detailed system for assigning powers or skills to NPC's or monsters (besides just eyeball it) in 4e? I'm genuinely curious.
No there isn't (other than the specific powers granted by templates), and thank god for that. They give a whole lot of guidelines, but few hard rules, which makes customization much easier.
 

Man it's become tough slogging in here, trying to plow through all the 3e and 4e examples while trying to approach all this from a 1e or non-e perspective. :)

And I am.

A good encounter, a good adventure, is edition-neutral; in that once the mechanical conversions are done it's still good. Forge of Fury, for example: grand adventure in any edition you care to convert it to (though annoyingly laid out; and that sort of thing is also what I hope we're trying to fix here). So let's ignore all the edition-specific stuff and just figure out how to write good encounters.

False. A good encounter takes into account the expected capabilities of the participants. And those capabilities are different edition to edition. You don't need to protect against Scry and Fry in low level 3e or in 4e.

"You enter a 30x30' room with stone walls, a straw-covered floor, and dingy smoke-stained ceiling. In one corner there is a low-burning fire with some sort of small beast roasting on a spit above it; the smoke exits through what looks like a crack in the ceiling. Against the other wall stands an open barrel. There are no obvious exits from the room. (If the PCs have approached quietly) Two Orcs are tending the fire and meal, while 6 more lounge on rickety chairs around a large table. (If the PCs have alerted the Orcs) Two Orcs with weapons drawn are guarding the fire. Several others are crouched behind an upturned table, crossbows at the ready and pointed your way."

Assume there's a wizard with the party in both editions and a combat encounter. In 3e the wizard is either not going to do much other than plinking with a crossbow or he's probably going to eliminate almost the entire fight with Sleep if the PCs sneak up on the orcs. In 4e he's probably going to Thunderwave the orcs into the fire (which means the fire is part of the encounter rather than mostly scenery).

And though I think I've already said this I guess I'd better say it again: there is - or certainly should be - more to a monster's write-up than just the statblock. In any edition. So why all the concern about whether some non-combat or quasi-combat thing is or isn't specifically in the statblock? As long as it's in the write-up somewhere, preferably on the same page, then so what?

I have no idea. (In other words I agree).

I am going to concern myself with these two examples since this is where the crux of your more options for melee monsters/NPC's lie... and actually I will have to comment on the Bulette later, but I will quickly comment on the Bugbear...

Our 4e Bugbear is a level 5 monster (I'm not certain how it compares to the CR 2 3.x Bugbear), who has a simple melee attk w/ a morningstar (easily covered by the 3.x Bugbear), it has Skullthumper... which is an attk that requires combat advantage and a morningstar... it does the regular damage for a morningstar but allows the bugbear to knock an opponent prone and daze him. Finally Predatory Strike allows the Bugbear to deal extra damage 1x per encounter. He can also, per 4e rules,... charge, bull rush and grab.

Our 3.x Bugbear already has a morningstar basic attack... now for one of his racial feats lets give him power attk... he can now deal extra damage anytime he wants by taking a reduced chance to hit. He also has a ranged attack with the javelins... so we're already at three different options by just switching a feat out... a regular attk, power attk and ranged attk. On top of this he can implicitly grapple, trip, feint, sunder, bull rush, charge, disarm, overrun etc. I'm not understanding how your 4e Bugbear has more options in combat by the rules?

Because we mentally discard options that suck. There are very few occasions where power attack is mathematically a good idea. The hit penalty is just too high. And for that matter it just replaces an attack that deals damage with an attack that ... deals slightly more damage.

Trip isn't worth it. It leaves you wide open, as does disarm. Overrun both leaves you wide open and your opponent just steps out of the way. Feint costs an attack to do very little. Common use of Sunder will get things thrown at the DM by the players.

A monster has the option to come into battle bouncing on a pogo stick, and attack by taking his armour off and throwing it at people. That doesn't mean that you count it when listing options. (The other thing is that Power Attack unless used at high modifier isn't very different from a basic attack. But people notice Skullthumper even if they aren't following the math of the fight.)
 

Oh, so in 3e you custom-craft every single damn monster you use. In 4e you are mysteriously not allowed to custom-craft monsters. Great double-standards there. And in 3e you seem to want to operate above the level where many think it breaks down (see E6 for details).

No, but the option is there when I want to. 4e's customization, again, is mostly slap this or that template on it... and most of the time only one or at most two can be applied... for the record we are talking game rules not DM fiat.

Second... I don't even understand what you mean in your last sentence... where have I talked about only operating above any level.
 

False. A good encounter takes into account the expected capabilities of the participants. And those capabilities are different edition to edition. You don't need to protect against Scry and Fry in low level 3e or in 4e.

By this set of criteria one cannot have a good encounter without knowing the abilities of the actual characters who will take part as well as the talents of the players running them. Therefore no published encounter is worth the paper it's written on. :hmm:
 

Remove ads

Top