There are additional problems in this thread that I'll address in a minute, but this will be the post that just got Beginning of the End suspended. Folks, please pay attention to what he does here -- and then don't do that. Our simple "don't be a jerk" rules is being completely ignored, and we don't have a lot of patience for that. ~ PCat
Not that D&D has ever been focused primarily on anything outside of the play group but it has generally supported multiple play styles.
Is that true? Prior to 4e, you had to begin play at level 1 and then stop around level 10 in order to balance casters. Either that or play the whole game in the level 3-6 region, which I think I lot of people might've done. Also, to balance Vancian magic you need a certain minimum number of encounters per day, in my view 3e needed quite a bit more than four to be balanced.
First, I find your assertions about how D&D "had" to be played extremely questionable. Starting campaigns above 1st level was as easy as saying "roll up 5th level characters". And I've run plenty of campaigns beyond 10th level with great success and minimal balance problems. (With proactive instead of reactive dungeon mastering, the casters only start skewing out of balance once they can truly start dictating the pace of encounters. And that doesn't happen until 15th level or thereabouts.)
But more importantly, pre-4E D&D supported multiple styles of play
at every level. Fighters, wizards, rogues, and clerics all featured widely divergent mechanical styles of play. All 4E classes, on the other hand, are variations on a single mechanical theme.
And going all the way back to the 1974 White Box, we find rules for multiple styles of campaign. The rules for dungeon crawling and combat actually took up a
minority of both the rulebooks and the class descriptions in 1974.
Of these 14 encounters you highlight, precisely one involves 5 or more (exactly 5, actually) of the same non-minion stat block.
Nice try at moving the goalposts. You get an E for Effort, but an F for intellectual dishonesty.
I call bull on this, the only way a 3e melee attacker monster/NPC has fewer options than a 4e melee attacker monster/NPC is if you disregard the application of classes, feats, prestige classes, etc. when designing it. Otherwise it becomes a matter of number of options being relatively scalable in 3e to how much effort one is willing to put into personalizing the monster.
What is probably true is that 4E melee attackers at 1st level generally have more options than 3E melee attackers. But, OTOH, 1st level in 4E was explicitly designed to look more like 3rd level in previous editions.
I'm going to arbitrarily look at ten CR 5 non-casters in the MM for both games. I'm going to ignore options coming from skill use or from basic functionality of the combat system. For 3rd Edition, I'm taking the first 10 monsters in the CR 5 listing and not listing any monsters with spells or spell-like abilities. (And I only did one elemental.) For 4th Edition I'm taking the top two creatures listed in each category for Level 5 creatures, except for controllers. (I also skipped the one Level 5 minion listed.)
3rd Edition
Achaeri (3): Claw/Bite, Black Cloud, Spring Attack
Animated Object, Huge (4): Slam, Blind, Constrict, Trample
Arrowhawk, Adult (3): Bite, Electricity Ray, Flyby Attack
Basilisk (2): Bite, Petrifying Gaze
Cloaker (4): Tail Slap, Moan, Engulf, Shadow Shift
Devil, Bearded (7): Claw, Infernal Wound, Beard, Battle Frenzy, Summon Baatezu, Telepathy, Power Attack
Dire Lion (3): Claw, Pounce, Rake
Elemental, Large Air (3): Slam, Whirlwind, Flyby Attack
Gibbering Mouther (7): Bite, Spittle, Gibbering, Improved Grab, Blood Drain, Engulf, Ground Manipulation
Average: 3.6 options
4th Edition
Blazing Skeleton (2): Blazing Claw, Flame Orb
Gnoll Huntmaster (3): Handaxe, Longbow, Pack Attack
Boneshard Skeleton (3): Scimitar, Boneshard, Boneshard Burst
Bugbear Warrior (Goblin) (3): Morningstar, Skullthumper, Predatory Eye
Greenscale Darter (Lizardfolk) (3): Club, Blowgun, Sniper
Slaad Tadpole (2): Bite, Chaos Shift
Dire Wolf (3): Bite, Combat Advantage, Pack Hunter
Fire Bat (2): Fiery Touch, Fiery Swoop
Dragonborn Soldier (4): Dragon Breath, Dragonborn Fury, Impetuous Spirit, Martial Recovery
Dwarf Hammerer (5): Warhammer, Shield Bash, Throwing Hammer, Stubborn, Stand Your Ground
Average: 3.0 options
This spot check would seem to confirm your suspicion, Imaro.
No, the great stories are never about balanced encounters (even though, sometimes, they actually might be). That doesn't mean that balanced encounters don't play a huge role in facilitating the cooperative telling of a story that involves combat encounters, nor does it mean that a balanced encounter is going to make a great story more difficult to tell. Your signature engages in the clear implication that balanced encounters are unimportant to a roleplaying game, and I think that's an implication that deserves one heck of a challenge.
I think there are actually two divisions in play style being clumped together here:
(1) "
All encounters should be perfectly balanced" vs. "
a wide range of encounter difficulties makes for a dynamic play experience"
(2) "The DM is primarily responsible for the balance of play" vs. "The players control the balance of play"
These two styles interact with each in several ways (for example, when players are allowed to choose what difficulty of challenge they want to deal with a dynamic range of encounter difficulties is generally part of that parcel).
Except I think you are the one making that equation, not Noonan. The attitude of "five rounds later, they're done" is explicitly a discussion of what abilities are relevant in the stat-block in the context of how many actions a creature will take.
I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I read: "We wanted our presentation of monsters to reflect how they’re actually used in D&D gameplay." And I read that to mean "this is how monsters are used in D&D". You, on the other hand, are apparently choosing to simply ignore that statement for your own convenience.
(Or you're choosing to interpret "D&D gameplay" to mean "combat and nothing but combat". Which just brings us back to my point again.)
Are they as common as the combat? No, but that is an issue with adventure design more than something fundamentally tied to what monsters are capable of.
... and no matter how many time I explicitly say that isn't a claim I'm making, you keep repeating it so that you can beat the strawman a little more.
Why do you keep doing that, exactly?
Every time I've pointed out that monsters still have relevant stats, skills and abilities that a DM can use to have them interact out of combat, you've chosen to respond to some other point entirely.
Because that statement is irrelevant to what I'm saying. If you kept saying, "Apples are red." I would similarly ignore that. I have nothing to say to it. Yes, apples are red. So what? WotC's designers are still espousing a design philosophy that NPCs only exist in the context of combat; and that design philosophy still has an impact on how their modules are being written.
(It also has an impact on how their stat blocks are written, which has a much smaller impact on how their adventure modules are written. But that's an almost entirely tangential issue.)
Let's see if this can make it clearer: Even in a world where 4th Edition had never been designed or published, the design philosophy espoused by Noonan would still produce combat-happy grind-fest modules. It doesn't matter what edition you're designing for: If your attitude is that NPCs only exist in combat, then you're going to be designing combat-happy grind-fest modules.
He also said that we don't need mechanics detailing how they interact with other NPCs out of combat.
Actually, no. What he said is that we don't need mechanics detailing how they interact with other NPCs
off-screen while the PCs aren't there to see it.
This part of Noonan's claim is, BTW, essentially true. (The only exception is that it may be important insofar as the PCs are capable of finding out that information without being there to see it. But that's nothing more than a quibble.)
Unfortunately, the rest of Noonan's statement goes on to say that we don't need mechanics detailing how NPCs interact with PCs outside of combat. Which is, of course, complete poppycock.
The problem is, you have somehow leaped from that scenario... to claiming that by prioritizing combat relevance, we are outright exiling non-combat interaction from the game.
It doesn't really matter how many times you
claim I said that. I never actually said that.
Then why did you describe Noonan's claim that NPCs exist only in combat a being a "truthful statement"?
When an actor leaves the stage does the character continue to exist? There's a good argument that the answer is no.
How can you argue so stridently that you don't have a bias for combat and then just blatantly post that in your campaigns NPCs never appear outside of combat?
C'mon!
Each round each NPC has to select an action. If there are 5 NPCs using the same stat block and 5 rounds, then 25 actions have to be selected from that stat block.
And if the monsters don't select the same action more than once they are almost incoherent.
Beat that strawman! Beat it until it bleeds!
Lemme know when you want to talk about something that I actually said.
...yeah. Not so much. ~ PCat