Fifth Element
Legend
Do you really need to, though? Some players in my game do so, others just describe their attack, announce the result of their attack, and then describe the effects.
GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?
- Thread starter innerdude
- Start date
Imaro
Legend
Now I will admit I think this has alot to do with the make up of my 4e group,which is not only spanning age range from 9 to 30 years, but also almost totally composed of casual gamers. So I don't think this problem will arise in every group, heck it probably won't in majority of groups playing 4e... but in mine, with young and casual players who are not interested in, or unable, to take on the burden of rules knowledge 4e requires players to do... it is something that has resulted in me having to explain what the powers do (in game terms) for many of them. Some stuff like twin strike is pretty straightforward vs. stuff like the monk's powers (Thanks Naruto) which are not easy for a kid to remember or fully understand.
EDIT: This is also part of the reason, I'm not too sure that 4e as it stands now is all that great for introducing new people and kids to the hobby with. Yes, this is anecdotal and I know others have had different experiences... but I can only speak on mine.
Some of my fellow players yell out the power names, some tap their power cards. I personally just say "I at-will him".
LostSoul
Adventurer
While any ogre can be felled with a well-placed dagger or shovel, ogre children don't know how to do anything but rush right in without care for their own safety. As they grow they learn how to protect themselves - the ogre crèche is full of cannibalism.
The "non-combatant" doesn't hold up for all minions; luckily, I don't like I have to use minions that ruin the consistency of the game world for me.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I find children's imagination extraordinary in this arena especially when they realize the might get rewarded for cool descriptions of what there characters do which fit the scene. Check out DMs best friend for this. The cards as I said are a great memory aid too...
Hussar
Legend
I find it rather telling that you would use an B/E D&D stat block for this. Given that B/E has no skills and no social resolution mechanics everything is 100% left in the hands of DM fiat in determining how Queen Victoria deals with non-combat elements.
The funny thing is, 4e would take almost exactly the same approach. The stat block would look identical, except for a line saying Insight+x and Diplomacy +y, both determined by the DM.
It's only in 3e that Queen Victoria would be a 15th level aristocrat (in order to actually have the skills required for her position) that includes the ability to fold, spindle and maul 99% of the population in hand to hand combat.
I think that this comment relies on assumptions about what the players of the game are looking for that don't hold true for all groups.
What is it to take out a non-minion NPC/monster in a single hit? First, to succeed on an attack roll. Second, to make a reallly good roll on the damage dice.
What is it to take out a minion NPC/monster in a single hit? All that is needed is to succeed on the attack roll.
I don't see that one or the other is inherently awesome or non-awesome. They're just rolls of the dice. Roll enough to-hit dice and some will be good. Roll enough damage dice and some will be good.
What's awesome, at least for my group, is pretty context-specific. If there is a monster that has been doing a lot of damage and giving the PCs a lot of grief, than taking it down can be awesome - not because of the die rolls, but because of the context in the course of play. If a PC is surrounded by a whole lot of monsters, and then another PC AoEs them and they all drop because they're minions, that can equally be awesome, as (what seemed to the players to be) a potential disaster is averted.
At least for my group, it's the ingame situation rather than the probabilities that carries the burden of awesomeness, and minions just as much as other monsters can give rise to interesting ingame situations.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Mechanics aside for a moment, it isn't the feat of rolling a particular set of numbers on some die rolls that is satisfying. The satisfaction is in knowing that when an opponent drops (or doesn't) that it is a creature that feels like it belongs with the rest of the world.
The feeling of awesome is diminished when the circumstances are set up specifically to provide an outcome that is intended to give off a feeling of awesome.
The context is excactly what I am talking about. If a horde of nasty looking demons is approaching and they get taken out with a flyswatter the context of being charged by scary demons just isn't there.
But the question becomes, how can you present that horde of enemies without one of the following being true:
1) The enemies are designed to be a valid threat to the PCs, but individually easy to defeat (such as 4E minions).
2) The enemies are designed as a large number of lower-level enemies, not necessarily dying in one hit, but also not presenting a genuine threat.
3) The enemies are designed as genuine threats to the PCs, providing a real feeling of success if they triumph - but more likely leading to the PCs being overwhelmed and defeated.
Keep in mind, a minion being individually easy to take out doesn't mean an encounter with them will be just as easy. Hacking down a single enemy might not provide that feeling of accomplishment you are after - but wading through a sea of enemies and emerging triumphant? I've seen players accomplish that, and be genuinely excited at doing so.
So what is your solution? Never have a fight in which the PCs face a horde of enemies? Since your only options are lower-level enemies that can't threaten the group - or threatening enemies that are thus overwhelming. Which might be acceptable for very occasional combats, if the PCs prove lucky enough to survive or escape - but would by and large remove that entire category of encounters from being an option.
And that aside - when a player drops a minion, that creatures feels like it belongs with the rest of the world. When my soldier cleaves through a half-dozen orcs on the way to the orc chieftain, it feels appropriate they died easily - they are regular orcs, unable to stand up to the blows of a mighty warrior. What is out of place about that?
I mean - tying this to classic fantasy stories, how often do we see an author describe the hero having to swing a half-dozen times to drop every single enemy in his path? We don't - the hero cuts down lesser enemies with ease. Quite often with single blows! At the same time, he doesn't dismiss them - if he leaves himself open, even the least opponent could land a serious blow.
And in some ways, enemies dying in one hit and everything being a threat could be argued to be even more realistic than the alternatives. Honestly, it is the PCs themselves, and the stronger enemies they face who take dozens of attacks to drop, that aren't 'realistic'. Which most people accept, because its a game, and having every character die as soon as they take a single hit from a sword just isn't all that fun.
1) The enemies are designed to be a valid threat to the PCs, but individually easy to defeat (such as 4E minions).
2) The enemies are designed as a large number of lower-level enemies, not necessarily dying in one hit, but also not presenting a genuine threat.
3) The enemies are designed as genuine threats to the PCs, providing a real feeling of success if they triumph - but more likely leading to the PCs being overwhelmed and defeated.
Keep in mind, a minion being individually easy to take out doesn't mean an encounter with them will be just as easy. Hacking down a single enemy might not provide that feeling of accomplishment you are after - but wading through a sea of enemies and emerging triumphant? I've seen players accomplish that, and be genuinely excited at doing so.
So what is your solution? Never have a fight in which the PCs face a horde of enemies? Since your only options are lower-level enemies that can't threaten the group - or threatening enemies that are thus overwhelming. Which might be acceptable for very occasional combats, if the PCs prove lucky enough to survive or escape - but would by and large remove that entire category of encounters from being an option.
And that aside - when a player drops a minion, that creatures feels like it belongs with the rest of the world. When my soldier cleaves through a half-dozen orcs on the way to the orc chieftain, it feels appropriate they died easily - they are regular orcs, unable to stand up to the blows of a mighty warrior. What is out of place about that?
I mean - tying this to classic fantasy stories, how often do we see an author describe the hero having to swing a half-dozen times to drop every single enemy in his path? We don't - the hero cuts down lesser enemies with ease. Quite often with single blows! At the same time, he doesn't dismiss them - if he leaves himself open, even the least opponent could land a serious blow.
And in some ways, enemies dying in one hit and everything being a threat could be argued to be even more realistic than the alternatives. Honestly, it is the PCs themselves, and the stronger enemies they face who take dozens of attacks to drop, that aren't 'realistic'. Which most people accept, because its a game, and having every character die as soon as they take a single hit from a sword just isn't all that fun.
