GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?

[Scribble]

Can you also see how this may not be true for others... and for some 4e may actively get in the way.

Sure can- that's why I said it's why I like it, but not everyone has to.

(And yes I realize one had to announce a feat or spell being used in 3e.. but for some reason for me and my group it seemed to flow with immersion better than the powers do in 4e).

Shrug- I have some players that do, some that don't and some that bounce back and forth. This kind of stuff has never bothered me. (It's just another thing in a list of things we pop in and out of immersion for at my games... Jokes, comments, rules things, stories... whatever. I don't know if I could get into a "super focused" game of any sorts.)

 

[billd91]

It's only in 3e that Queen Victoria would be a 15th level aristocrat (in order to actually have the skills required for her position) that includes the ability to fold, spindle and maul 99% of the population in hand to hand combat.

But why would I want to model a 19th century queen in a class-based fantasy RPG? More modern societies don't model well with class-based games as ones centuries earlier.

And why would I think the character needed to be 15th level to have the skills required for her position? A lot of people seem to think that people at the pinnacle of society by birth need to have skills higher than anyone else in order to lead them. But that's not the case.

If I were to use D&D to stat up the old bird, I certainly wouldn't be going as high as 15th level when 8th-10th level would do (and by the time she hit such lofty levels, age-based stat-reduction would be significantly reducing her combat ability). And I'd consider plunking a few feats into Skill Focus if I felt I needed to get some of her skills up.

 

[Imaro]

I find children's imagination extraordinary in this arena especially when they realize the might get rewarded for cool descriptions of what there characters do which fit the scene. Check out DMs best friend for this. The cards as I said are a great memory aid too...

What I've seen with my young nephew is that his imagination doesn't mesh well with the powers. So I've had to do double duty with my nephew, where he describes what he wants to do... and I find one of his powers I can reskin into a similar effect of what he is trying. He looks at it as an imaginary game of heroics, and sometimes the tactical nature of the game... as well as the dependence on team interaction doesn't necessarily vibe well with his improvisational (and always zany) comabat maneuvers.

 

[AllisterH]

I mean - tying this to classic fantasy stories, how often do we see an author describe the hero having to swing a half-dozen times to drop every single enemy in his path? We don't - the hero cuts down lesser enemies with ease. Quite often with single blows! At the same time, he doesn't dismiss them - if he leaves himself open, even the least opponent could land a serious blow.

And in some ways, enemies dying in one hit and everything being a threat could be argued to be even more realistic than the alternatives. Honestly, it is the PCs themselves, and the stronger enemies they face who take dozens of attacks to drop, that aren't 'realistic'. Which most people accept, because its a game, and having every character die as soon as they take a single hit from a sword just isn't all that fun.

THIS

THIS is why I love the minion concept even with its rough edges.

The idea of a minion isn't superheroic or even Hollywoodesque...it's STANDARD fantasy that D&D is supposedly modelling....

Hell, it's not even fantasy, but more akin to real life...

I truly don't understand complaints about minions being unrealistic when ironically, they most closely match how the real world works...uch better than the increasing HP method we are accustomed to.

 

[Rechan]

"I get the feeling that they are selling many more modules now than they were 2 years ago." is the exact quote, to which you replied "It would SHOCK me if this were the case."

Yes. And then Wicht asked if I thought their place in the MARKET is shrinking.

 

[Wicht]

Yes. And then Wicht asked if I thought their place in the MARKET is shrinking.

And I ask you again to clarify...

Do you think they are selling less and yet increasing their presence in the market?

 

[Sir Wulf]

2) The enemies are designed as a large number of lower-level enemies, not necessarily dying in one hit, but also not presenting a genuine threat.

While I've employed "minions" of one sort or another in previous games, the idea that lower-level foes aren't a genuine threat seems to be an artifact of 4th Edition mechanics. In every other edition, I've been able to challenge PCs with hordes of lower-level foes. Since the party's defenses didn't consistently rachet up with their level, low-level enemies could potentially overwhelm them.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So what is your solution? Never have a fight in which the PCs face a horde of enemies? Since your only options are lower-level enemies that can't threaten the group - or threatening enemies that are thus overwhelming. Which might be acceptable for very occasional combats, if the PCs prove lucky enough to survive or escape - but would by and large remove that entire category of encounters from being an option.

I stated my preferred solution in an earlier post. Get rid of the ever escalating defenses, let damage increase with level/training, and just have hit points do their job. The minion problem is only a problem due to the MMO style narrow effective level range. If a monster is too many levels below a PC it can never hit. Likewise, a monster that is too many levels above cannot be hit.

And that aside - when a player drops a minion, that creatures feels like it belongs with the rest of the world. When my soldier cleaves through a half-dozen orcs on the way to the orc chieftain, it feels appropriate they died easily - they are regular orcs, unable to stand up to the blows of a mighty warrior. What is out of place about that?

Not a thing. Without any staying power the scrawny scribe will also be able to lay them out with a punch. That feels out of place. If we alter the nature of something to be relevant in different ways to different people then we have narrative constructs, not representative attributes. If a declaration is made that orc mook #1 gets dropped by a mean stare by Hulko the fighter, but linkboy Nodwick would have to carve through 25 hp against that same mook based on some circumstance or outcome that we desire for a story then we have waved goodbye to the game portion of rpg.

I mean - tying this to classic fantasy stories, how often do we see an author describe the hero having to swing a half-dozen times to drop every single enemy in his path? We don't - the hero cuts down lesser enemies with ease. Quite often with single blows! At the same time, he doesn't dismiss them - if he leaves himself open, even the least opponent could land a serious blow.

Absolutely correct. In a fantasy story, the author has happen whatever is needed to advance said story to it's desired conclusion. Does the author roll dice to see if his/her hero makes it through alive? Of course not because there is no game being played. The story is what it is. No serious blow could be landed without the will of the author allowing it.

 

[MrMyth]

While I've employed "minions" of one sort or another in previous games, the idea that lower-level foes aren't a genuine threat seems to be an artifact of 4th Edition mechanics. In every other edition, I've been able to challenge PCs with hordes of lower-level foes. Since the party's defenses didn't consistently rachet up with their level, low-level enemies could potentially overwhelm them.

I'm certainly glad to hear you never ran into any such issues, but that doesn't mean they weren't there for others. A large part of the design for 4E minions was that this was a regular problem for many groups. I know that in my own games, all the characters worked on making sure their defenses went up as they levelled, such that I had to actively work to optimize lower level enemies, or give up on threatening them with a horde of foes. There were plenty of ways to do so, of course - monsters with naturally good attack bonus, support NPCs with buffs to give out, or monsters with attacks that bypassed defenses entirely. But in some ways, that was its own problem that needed to be fixed - when there was so much disparity in power for monsters of the same exact level (all depending on how well the DM optimized their creation), something is clearly wrong with the CR system.

It is certainly true that 4E made it more relevant when it addressed this, and placed more focus on balancing the numbers. That made the need for 4E style minions even more significant. But I don't think one can deny that the problem existed beforehand - it might not have cropped up for everyone, but it certainly was there for many.

 

[AllisterH]

While I've employed "minions" of one sort or another in previous games, the idea that lower-level foes aren't a genuine threat seems to be an artifact of 4th Edition mechanics. In every other edition, I've been able to challenge PCs with hordes of lower-level foes. Since the party's defenses didn't consistently rachet up with their level, low-level enemies could potentially overwhelm them.

Been true since AT LEAST 2nd edition.

Taken from the black cover PHB.

Pg. 99, Full plate armour + shield = AC 0. While not achievable at 1st level due to monetary concerns, it most assuredly was by at least 5th level.

(look at the table for followers a fighter got and you'll notice that if a fighter had a 5th level fighter as leader of his followers, the minimum gear it came with was plate mail + shield. I personally used this as a minimum level or "expected" gear for fighters

keep in mind that if you look at the table of FOLLOWERS from the fighter excerpt, there was something very weird going on...For Elite units that the fighter gained as followers, one of the options was 10 mounted knights wearing field plate + shield)

THACO of kobolds, orc and bugbears 20, 19 and 17 respectively.

I certainly don't call being "effective" when you need to throw 20 kobolds just to get the possible of one hit.

Indeed...if you look through the Monstrous Manual, most monsters (60%) don't have a THACO better than in the teens...

Given that I didnt include magic armour, rings and/or dexterity bonuses, the idea that this is either a 3e or 4e problem I don't agree with.