GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?

Hussar said:
Snort. Does it really matter? 10th level aristocrat, even with stat penalties (which you now have to account for, this is a thread about GM prep time) still folds, spindles and mauls 99% of the population of the nation, which consists of 1st level commoners. Quibbling over the level is a bit pointless don't you think? Even 8th level, she's obliterating the local blacksmith (lvl 1 commoner) in unarmed combat.

Go granny go.

Personally, I thought this was an interesting implication about the D&D3 rules.

A 1st level Aristocrat is perfectly capable of ruling the Brittish Empire (or its fantasy equivalent). There's nothing mandating that an aged queen be 10th level. People sort of assume she must be because "power = levels, right?", but that's not necessarily true in 3e, even as far as PC's go. She could just have a very loyal 20th level party at her disposal or somesuch. ;)

The guideline of "99% of humanity is 1st level commoners, so anyone who is not one of those things is already pretty exceptional" makes this believable.

However, the implication of "if you gain levels, you become more mighty in all ways" always seemed to imply a very interesting world to me, one where, in order to become a 10th level Aristocrat, you needed to actually fight things, or at least confront them. A 10th level Queen Victoria wouldn't have gotten that way by sitting on a throne and offering up decrees. She would have killed goblins, fought elves, confronted demons. She would have been a warrior-queen, a glorious beacon to all.

You could totally be an awesome monarch just by being a 1st level Aristocrat (especially if you had a heroic, non-11 Charisma or somesuch), because most of the world was worse than you, but if you were a truly heroic Aristocrat, you would have been an Adventurer, a reputation forged in blood and battle.

To be 10th level, in other words, you need to enter the Fantasy genre, and you're out of the realm of normal human stuff. Any person who isn't an adventurer would only be 1st level or so, and they could still be quite amazing.
 

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:) It's definitely not rocket science - but I can see where answering this question will lead me :)
Okay, I'll admit that this is something you can only figure out with some experience (or by reading a post from someone with some experience). Basically, the conditions that warrant a reduction in damage are the ones that players hate the most: stun, dominate, daze, restrained, immobilize - roughly in that order - did I forget one?
It would have been easy to add a sentence or two in the DMG to indicate the 'severity' of conditions. I have no idea why they didn't do this.
It's not "required" at all...it is an option and any DM can choose to limit or expand the books they want to use for preparation... and in doing so accept the fact that his choice may increase or decrease preparation time.
Well, that's your opinion. I disagree for the reasons I already stated.
It never discouraged me from making stuff up, and it provided structure for times that I wanted to fall back on it.
Good for you!
However, if you felt it was easy to make stuff up in 3e, I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd think it would be harder in 4e.
however the reason I'm paying money is to have the rules to do so... if those rules do not cover what I want to make up or how I want to make it up... then I have no reason to purchase them.
Apparently, you're considering different things worth purchasing than I do. I assume you're never buying adventure modules then? Because they typically don't include any rules. How about setting books or monster ecologies?
You make it sound as if you are only interested in 'toolbox' books.

As a DM I'm mostly interested in buying books (or tools) that will allow me get my creative juices flowing, to save work when prepping for a session and to allow me to run a session more smoothly.

Complicated rules for monster customization do none of these things for me.
Citation please? Where have the designers stated this... or are you inferring this?[...]That would be interesting reading indeed... do you happen to have a link.
I've found the link. It's an entry in Peter Schaefer's blog.
 

Personally, I thought this was an interesting implication about the D&D3 rules.

A 1st level Aristocrat is perfectly capable of ruling the Brittish Empire (or its fantasy equivalent). There's nothing mandating that an aged queen be 10th level. People sort of assume she must be because "power = levels, right?", but that's not necessarily true in 3e, even as far as PC's go. She could just have a very loyal 20th level party at her disposal or somesuch. ;)

The guideline of "99% of humanity is 1st level commoners, so anyone who is not one of those things is already pretty exceptional" makes this believable.

However, the implication of "if you gain levels, you become more mighty in all ways" always seemed to imply a very interesting world to me, one where, in order to become a 10th level Aristocrat, you needed to actually fight things, or at least confront them. A 10th level Queen Victoria wouldn't have gotten that way by sitting on a throne and offering up decrees. She would have killed goblins, fought elves, confronted demons. She would have been a warrior-queen, a glorious beacon to all.

You could totally be an awesome monarch just by being a 1st level Aristocrat (especially if you had a heroic, non-11 Charisma or somesuch), because most of the world was worse than you, but if you were a truly heroic Aristocrat, you would have been an Adventurer, a reputation forged in blood and battle.

To be 10th level, in other words, you need to enter the Fantasy genre, and you're out of the realm of normal human stuff. Any person who isn't an adventurer would only be 1st level or so, and they could still be quite amazing.

I think this is a bit of flawed thinking for two (possibly three) reasons. The first is, of course that you don't only gain XP for combat. It could be quiet possible, were the queen to be a PC, that she could gain many levels for being involved in political plots and maneuvering. For example, she might get XP for resolving a squabble between two nobles and preventing it from escalating into a civil war. Perhaps she makes a royal appearance at the founding of a new library in her name and makes an inspiring speech that encourages other nobles to build other libraries - gaining XP for the act. And so on.

Then, of course, there are the kings and queens known for their battle prowess, who lead armies and plot against heroic characters (such as Queen Maeve who bedeviled Cuchulainn).

Lastly, it would seem appropriate that the heroic figures of legend should have levels because they stand a cut above the rest of humanity. Good ol' Queen Victoria might have 100 hp because she's a tough ol' bitch to kill - she's important to the story and seeing her go down like a mook is a bit of a letdown (I'd give Queen Victoria, of "Tooth and Claw" from Dr. Who season 2 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TZzVKzHx4&feature=related"]<clip here>[/ame], some heroic levels)
 

Making up powers completely on the spot, in 4E, for me, takes only a few moments and consistently yields absolutely more balanced results than strictly following every formula for monster advancement in 3.5. This is because the numbers largely stay balanced, and it is typically pretty obvious where something falls in the power level: an area-effect at-will stun (save ends) is at the top end, while a power that reduces someone's movement by 1 is not that big a deal.
I 100% agree that mathematical consistency is a major attribute of 4E.
 

Imaro? Are you a D&D Insider subscriber? Reason I ask is that the Monster Builder allows me to sort all monsters by any order I want. And the ability to see all published L4-7 Soldiers really helps me design a new level 5 Soldier...
 

:) It's definitely not rocket science - but I can see where answering this question will lead me :)
Okay, I'll admit that this is something you can only figure out with some experience (or by reading a post from someone with some experience). Basically, the conditions that warrant a reduction in damage are the ones that players hate the most: stun, dominate, daze, restrained, immobilize - roughly in that order - did I forget one?

It would have been easy to add a sentence or two in the DMG to indicate the 'severity' of conditions. I have no idea why they didn't do this.


Honestly, I don't know if you forgot one, you're the master at freeform monster creation in 4e... but you've not touched on recharges vs. save ends vs. end of turn vs.... there's plenty that still needs to be addressed in designing powers and monsters. Also what is the reduction in damage necessary per condition... and there's also the many enemies vs. singular. My point being it is in no way "simple" if the numerous building blocks that go into a power are actually addressed and some sembelance of balance desired.

Well, that's your opinion. I disagree for the reasons I already stated..

No, it's a fact. Your assumption is false. Nothing in the players using numerous books forces me as DM to use them. I can choose to or choose not to.

Good for you!
However, if you felt it was easy to make stuff up in 3e, I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd think it would be harder in 4e.

I have tried to give insight to this in other posts. AllI can do is suggest you read the exchange between myself and MrMyth if you truly don't understand since he was able to at least grok my point (though he disagreed with it.).

Apparently, you're considering different things worth purchasing than I do. I assume you're never buying adventure modules then? Because they typically don't include any rules. How about setting books or monster ecologies?
You make it sound as if you are only interested in 'toolbox' books..

No I think you misread (or added your own inferences to) what I wrote... I addressed a specific product... a roleplaying game's rules... not sourcebooks or campaign books or adventures. I buy a roleplaying game's rules for the... well rules.

As a DM I'm mostly interested in buying books (or tools) that will allow me get my creative juices flowing, to save work when prepping for a session and to allow me to run a session more smoothly.

Again... I was commenting on a specific thing... you are commenting on something else.

Complicated rules for monster customization do none of these things for me..

Didn't ask for complicated rules... again you are inferring...

I've found the link. It's an entry in Peter Schaefer's blog.

Thanks, I'll take a look at this when I get a minute.
 

Imaro? Are you a D&D Insider subscriber? Reason I ask is that the Monster Builder allows me to sort all monsters by any order I want. And the ability to see all published L4-7 Soldiers really helps me design a new level 5 Soldier...


I was at one point and time, but I have canceled my subscription. I think this clouds the issue as this brings in additional tools one must pay for to use... so yes I understand your point but I think it is irrelevant to someone who only has the books and is trying to design their own monsters.
 

Keep in mind that for this, I'm essentially describing why I thought the D&D world implied by "10th level Aristocrats" was kind of a cool place. I'm not necessarily promoting this as the ideal or best way to present a D&D world. I'm just saying that for me, it was kind of neat to have a D&D world that conformed to these ideas.

Stormonu said:
The first is, of course that you don't only gain XP for combat. It could be quiet possible, were the queen to be a PC, that she could gain many levels for being involved in political plots and maneuvering. For example, she might get XP for resolving a squabble between two nobles and preventing it from escalating into a civil war. Perhaps she makes a royal appearance at the founding of a new library in her name and makes an inspiring speech that encourages other nobles to build other libraries - gaining XP for the act. And so on.

Theoretically, yes.

Practically, how many 10th level anythings have you ever seen or heard about who haven't been in at least a few combats?

This sort of D&D world is a violent, war-weary place, filled to the brim with monsters and demons. The idea that any character can be 10th level entirely through "ad hoc" XP like this is pretty unlikely on the face of it. The idea that even in a big urban center, she could avoid monsters, is also pretty unlikely. Monsters and battle are a fact of life for characters in this sort of D&D world, even for characters who are not PC's. It's implied that even farming peasants on the edges of civilization probably get into scrapes with low-level beasties of some sort.

That's part of why the world is appealing to me. It suggests that almost every NPC has an interesting story to tell about "that one time the ankheg got into the fields and we all got a militia together and stabbed it 'till it didn't move, even though it killed half of the Smith family" or "that group o' kobolds that wandered into the village that we had to take care of" or "when those cultists in the sewers came up spoilin' for a fight" or something like that.

It suggests that monsters are a fact of life, especially on the fringes of civilization, that even normal people regularly have fights to the death with these beasts. Given the fragility of most 1st level commoners, this implies a world where heroes are needed in daily life, where Adventuring is a necessary proposition, where mercenaries are something every farming village wants and needs. It helps create a more heroic setting for the party, and a world in which adventurers make sense, and are part of the setting, rather than apart from it.

In other words, XP is rewarded for the same things regardless of PC or NPC status. I wouldn't let a PC get to 10th level simply by giving speeches and talking to nobles, any more than I'd let them get to 10th level simply by getting in bar fights and drinking contests. They'd have to go be big fat heroes to get to that point. The same is true of Queen Victoria. She'd have to slay a dragon just like anyone else to get to 10th level. And if she can slay a dragon, she is probably not a frail old lady.

Then, of course, there are the kings and queens known for their battle prowess, who lead armies and plot against heroic characters (such as Queen Maeve who bedeviled Cuchulainn).

A 10th level Aristocrat Queen would be such a being in my mind: a legendary, heroic, magical, powerful Queen. If Queen Victoria were a 10th level Aristocrat, she would be a being of legend and might, not a frail old woman.

This is actually another awesome thing about the world this implies. While you can be a 1st level regent just fine, if the world has a few 10th or 20th-level Aristocrats in it, it implies that the world is a world of heroes, that great figures like this exist alongside the PC's, and that they party may eventually become heroes like this. It turns Queen Victoria into Queen Maeve, just like your 1st-level barbarian becomes Conan by 20th level.

And if she were a 1st level Aristocrat, she could still ably rule an entire fantasy-equivalent British Empire, without needing to be 10th level.

Lastly, it would seem appropriate that the heroic figures of legend should have levels because they stand a cut above the rest of humanity. Good ol' Queen Victoria might have 100 hp because she's a tough ol' bitch to kill - she's important to the story and seeing her go down like a mook is a bit of a letdown

That's using HP/combat power more narratively than anything else, which is fine, but leads to Hussar's point: it doesn't make sense to not be able to easily kill a frail old lady.

My argument is: if you're a 10th level aristocrat, you're not a frail old lady.

And if you want a frail old lady, a 1st level aristocrat can do the job of being a ruling regent of a world-spanning empire just fine. The fact that she's not 10th level doesn't make her any less politically powerful because in any edition of D&D that I know of, political power is from DM fiat (perhaps justified with a high Charisma and Skill Focus: Diplomacy and other things).
 
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there's plenty that still needs to be addressed in designing powers and monsters. Also what is the reduction in damage necessary per condition... and there's also the many enemies vs. singular. My point being it is in no way "simple" if the numerous building blocks that go into a power are actually addressed and some sembelance of balance desired.
No, it's a fact. Your assumption is false. Nothing in the players using numerous books forces me as DM to use them. I can choose to or choose not to.
Okay. You're right, nothing forces you to do anything at all. What do YOU do, though, when you have a party of highly optimized pcs stomping over your encounters and you don't want to make stuff up?

Your assumption, that anything beyond what is already given in the DMG (and can be implied by perusing the examples in the MM) 'needs' to be addressed is false, too.
No custom-created monster will ever be perfectly balanced (heck, official monsters aren't either!), but they don't need to. The system is robust enough to deal with minor imbalances.

Further, no amount of rules will ever be able to guarantee perfect balance in a system (that is not trivial). I think you are looking for rules where none are needed.

You see, I believe that sometimes providing rules can even be a bad thing. One example for this are the item creation guidelines in the 3.5 DMG. If you strictly follow these guidelines you can end up with all kinds of broken stuff. All that these guidelines really achieve is to provide DMs with a false sense of security that everything will work out just fine if all of the formulas have been properly used.

A couple of years later the MIC came along and told the DM to forget about the item creation guidelines and just compare custom creations with existing items to come up with reasonable costs because (here it comes!) no amount of rules could ever hope to provide an accurate guideline. Best. Advice. Ever.
Didn't ask for complicated rules... again you are inferring...
So what ARE you asking for?!
 

That's part of why the world is appealing to me. It suggests that almost every NPC has an interesting story to tell about "that one time the ankheg got into the fields and we all got a militia together and stabbed it 'till it didn't move, even though it killed half of the Smith family" or "that group o' kobolds that wandered into the village that we had to take care of" or "when those cultists in the sewers came up spoilin' for a fight" or something like that.

It's also why I've always thought the idea that 1st level was the most common level was sort of silly. 1000 xp is pretty easy to get, given enough time, and 3000 xp total is not out of reach of your average life. I've always considered 2nd and 3rd level to be a better baseline upon which to model your average citizen.
 

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