Gnome Favored Class: BARDS?!?

[brehobit]

My agreement with the OP's point is that the weakest core race is assigned the weakest core class. How lame is that?

Dude....

Not to go too far off topic, but....

Bards, with pure core rules are pretty weak. But throw in Eberron feats and the Spell Compendium and they are perhaps the single most powerful class in the game. At least at lower levels (that's all I've seen them at, levels 3-5 or so).

+3 attack +3 damage for the party is seriously crazy at these levels. My clawfoot riding halfling was more than twice as powerful with the bard (measured in average damage). Plus, after the first round he didn't suck. Throw in their bardic lore and communication skills and you have a huge character.

Mark

 

[Sejs]

Best?

Last I saw, Perform was on the Monk's and Rogue's class skill lists as well.

And neither typically have the inclination to put ranks into it, nor have the high charisma that is central to bards.

This is going to go back to the whole King Talker saw again, isn't it? Yes, some classes can hang with the bard as King Talker if they've got the inclination to bust ass at at, but for the bard it comes naturally. I'd even go so far to say that out of the core classes, only the rogue has the available skill points and class skill list to keep pace with the bard in that arena. And that assumes they're making sure to have a high charisma. And they'll still be left out in the rain when it comes to fascinate and suggestion.


So yes, bards are the best.

 

[KarinsDad]

Dude....

Not to go too far off topic, but....

Bards, with pure core rules are pretty weak. But throw in Eberron feats and the Spell Compendium and they are perhaps the single most powerful class in the game. At least at lower levels (that's all I've seen them at, levels 3-5 or so).

+3 attack +3 damage for the party is seriously crazy at these levels.

Precisely. Crazy. Sounds like your DM did not take care of the situation.

If the PC Bard is inspiring PCs to be way above and beyond, shouldn't he be the first target of NPCs if they find out about it?

 

[Sejs]

Precisely. Crazy. Sounds like your DM did not take care of the situation.

If the PC Bard is inspiring PCs to be way above and beyond, shouldn't he be the first target of NPCs if they find out about it?

Depends on the other available targets. If there's a fireball-chucking mage raining down horrible burning death, then that should probably take priority, but the inspiring bard should definitely be on the hit list. Subsonics isn't just for fun, it can also save your life.

 

[irdeggman]

And neither typically have the inclination to put ranks into it, nor have the high charisma that is central to bards.

This is going to go back to the whole King Talker saw again, isn't it? Yes, some classes can hang with the bard as King Talker if they've got the inclination to bust ass at at, but for the bard it comes naturally. I'd even go so far to say that out of the core classes, only the rogue has the available skill points and class skill list to keep pace with the bard in that arena. And that assumes they're making sure to have a high charisma. And they'll still be left out in the rain when it comes to fascinate and suggestion.


So yes, bards are the best.

Exactly. I did say interaction didn't - yes I did.

Perform is not really an interaction skill, like say bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and even intimidate. Although intimidate is not on the bard's class skill list - it is Cha based and Cha is the bard's prime ability.

And Bard is the only core class that has Speak Language as a class skill - never underestimate the value in that one.

 

[brehobit]

Precisely. Crazy. Sounds like your DM did not take care of the situation.

If the PC Bard is inspiring PCs to be way above and beyond, shouldn't he be the first target of NPCs if they find out about it?

Maybe, but I'm not sure they'd be able to figure it out. And even they do and they focus everything on the bard (and drop him) the 5 rounds of goodness will still happen. Once the bard gets the ability off, the bard becomes a low-value target.

Now the two bardic bonuses should perhaps not be allowed to stack....

Mark

 

[taliesin15]

Somewhere someone mentioned the issue of Tracking as a feat--I'm wondering why it shouldn't just be a skill, like Survival.

One thing I wanted to emphasize here is I don't see Gnomes as particularly Charismatic. No race gets Charisma addedd AFAIK, which suggests no race should get Bard or Sorceror as a favored class.

I come to this as being a big fan of Gnomes, particularly the 1st edition flavor, and use Bards extensively as NPCs IMC.

Bards are quite prevalent in all the human cultures there. Everywhere you go someone is strumming a harp, singing a lay a capella, telling a story, or reciting poetry. It is rare that a tavern is bereft of these. One group of newbies to my campaign walked around the town from the hinterlands where they grew up and kept trying to ignore all the bards (LOL!!!) everywhere because they were afraid they were trying to cast Charm Person on them or something.

Anyhow, the point is, I come from this from a pro-Bard, pro-Gnome perspective and I don't see how Gnomes would favor this class. There are Gnome Bards, but most of the Gnome NPCs are Jewelers, Botanists, Fine Furniture makers, Gem Assayers and the like. The adventuring types are split evenly between fighters (using hammers and picks), rogues and illusionists. There are some clerics and druids, and some gnome rangers in their homelands.

But back to the topic. Of all the non-human races, I think Half-Elves would be the most acceptable, or perhaps Haflings. Charisma wise. Halfings however I think 80% of folks would say naturally make great Rogues. Half-Elves don't really have a particular niche, being like humans generalists. Though I am very Tolkien-centric, and always tend to think of Rangers as Half-Elves as natural.

Course the other major Half-Elf (correct me if I'm wrong) in those stories was Elrond, who was a kind of Aristocrat, with some levels of Fighter and Wizard, but seemed to know a lot of Lore--perhaps some Bard levels too? And then there's the fact that Aragorn knew some poetry too. And the Haflings too. And the Dwarves at the beginning of The Hobbit. The fact that the Trolls knew some British working class limericks suggest possibilities for monsters having some levels of Bard, if low, too.

 

[irdeggman]

One thing I wanted to emphasize here is I don't see Gnomes as particularly Charismatic. No race gets Charisma addedd AFAIK, which suggests no race should get Bard or Sorceror as a favored class.

Elves don't get a bonus to Int either but they are prone to be wizards. Dwarves don't get a bonus to Str and they are prone to be fighters. Half-orcs get a bonus to Str but have favored class barbarian (which should technically havetheir prime abilty be Con since that is what is used to power their signature ability - rage). The only race that fits this progression is halflings (plus to Dex - favored class rogue). One could include humans and half-elves too since they get no bonuses and have favored class-any.

IMO whether or not a race gets a bonus to the prime ability of the class isn't relevanet (now if they got a penalty that might be). It is about what the race "typically" acts like.

Are gnomes friendly and prone to interaction in some manner? Are they a "likeable" race? One that most other races like to have around? They are prone to playing tricks and telling jokes by description.

 

[irdeggman]

Course the other major Half-Elf (correct me if I'm wrong) in those stories was Elrond, who was a kind of Aristocrat, with some levels of Fighter and Wizard, but seemed to know a lot of Lore--perhaps some Bard levels too? And then there's the fact that Aragorn knew some poetry too. And the Haflings too. And the Dwarves at the beginning of The Hobbit. The fact that the Trolls knew some British working class limericks suggest possibilities for monsters having some levels of Bard, if low, too.

IMO every race has their share of bards. They are not all the same and focus on different things but they all have storytellers and lore keepers.

 

[nobodez]

Someone earlier made a statement that there was something like 20+ classes to choose from for favored classes.

That's not even close.

But, since this is about gnomes, i'll leave that alone.

Me, I like gnomes as bards, since it gets more bards into the game (always good), and gets more gnomes into the game (also good, though not as much). Bards are the best 5th man, and in some cases (less dungeon/urban campaigns) would make a fine replacement for a rogue slot. They are the best buffers (especially at high levels, Good Hope + Inspire Greatness + Haste = Mondo Buff).

Now, someone also mentioned half-elves as weak. Obviously, they've never seen a Half-Elf bard/marshal/evangelist, or even a half-elf bard/marshal. There's nothing quite like a +3 synergy bonus (with a feat), and the ability to elf the room.

Oh, and back to gnomes, beguiler works well too, as does artificer, and possibly psion (telepath). It's all a matte of perspective. Oh, and gnome druids (and halfling druids for that matter) rock as well. (Say hello to my 50 ft. movement, fluffy).