Gods and Demon Lords, how do you handle them?
- Thread starter Bryan898
- Start date
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I make my campaign with epic in mind from the ground up, so I have fiends and deities statted up in epic levels.
I figure, a Divine Rank already exists. Let's use it.
DR = CR for the Aspects
DR = CR +20 for the Avatars
DR = CR +40 for the True Forms
I don't ever really expect individual players to beat up the True Forms of Gods, but it's within the realm of possibility, and the can absolutely challenge some of the weaker Avatars by the time the campaign ends (and may be able to recruit powerful alleis to challenge the powerful ones, or even the True Forms).
I figure, a Divine Rank already exists. Let's use it.
DR = CR for the Aspects
DR = CR +20 for the Avatars
DR = CR +40 for the True Forms
I don't ever really expect individual players to beat up the True Forms of Gods, but it's within the realm of possibility, and the can absolutely challenge some of the weaker Avatars by the time the campaign ends (and may be able to recruit powerful alleis to challenge the powerful ones, or even the True Forms).
lukelightning
First Post
My campaign is simple (I run an Arcana Unearthed/Evolved game, set in the Diamond Throne). For one thing, there are no gods. Most people think that either gods don't exist (they are just myths), or are just powerful beings (or powerful mythical beings... perhaps a powerful spellcaster from ages past that became legendary and the story grew).
There are powerful beings called "gods" by their worshippers, but they are no different from demon or devil lords in nature (or from celestial beings of similar status). They don't have the power to grant spells like in regular D&D but sometimes have the ability to grant special powers to individuals, and certainly can teach magic to their worshippers.
These beings can range in CR from mid to high level; the important factor is that there are no "generic" outsiders in my game. An ice devil is a powerful individual that could certainly be considered a "devil lord" according to mortal views; it wouldn't be some random ice devil but Chirikan Agath, Lord of the Frozen Pit, with the stats of a standard ice demon but with some customization, and it may have some cult of worshippers or servants.
My cosmology is less defined than in standard D&D; there is no specific "devil plane" etc. and planar travel is incredibly difficult (partly because I want the cosmology to be a mystery, but mostly because I'm not going to bother defining it until it actually becomes a factor to the players). Nor is there an alignment mechanic in AE, though demons/devils/fiends/whatever are certainly evil by any sane standard (i.e. they delight in causing pain and killing, seek to dominate and manipulate others, etc.)
There are powerful beings called "gods" by their worshippers, but they are no different from demon or devil lords in nature (or from celestial beings of similar status). They don't have the power to grant spells like in regular D&D but sometimes have the ability to grant special powers to individuals, and certainly can teach magic to their worshippers.
These beings can range in CR from mid to high level; the important factor is that there are no "generic" outsiders in my game. An ice devil is a powerful individual that could certainly be considered a "devil lord" according to mortal views; it wouldn't be some random ice devil but Chirikan Agath, Lord of the Frozen Pit, with the stats of a standard ice demon but with some customization, and it may have some cult of worshippers or servants.
My cosmology is less defined than in standard D&D; there is no specific "devil plane" etc. and planar travel is incredibly difficult (partly because I want the cosmology to be a mystery, but mostly because I'm not going to bother defining it until it actually becomes a factor to the players). Nor is there an alignment mechanic in AE, though demons/devils/fiends/whatever are certainly evil by any sane standard (i.e. they delight in causing pain and killing, seek to dominate and manipulate others, etc.)
The Serge: First off gotta say I'm a big fan of your work at dicefreaks. I just recently downloaded The Gates of Hell about a week ago, and love it. The amount of detail you guys put into all the players in Hell is amazing.
I definitely agree here with balancing their powers to make a sensible cosmos. However, I'm not big on the 70's CRs, or anything that powerful. At that point it just seems to be a mathematical exercise IMO. I do realize that people play games going into the 50's for levels, so I can see the need for some.
Agreed again for the most part. I assume that the highest mortal potential would be about level 35, but at that point they would be among some of the most powerful creatures in the planes. Though the PCs could potentially drop the Demogorgon or Asmodeus the possibility of them ever getting into that situation is very unlikely. There are after all, hordes of enemies to get through first.
The only problem I have with that is the sheer number of gods you'd end up with. Forgotten Realms already has enough gods that I cut half of them out. You say Kossuth and all the players give you blank looks...
Can't wait to see what you guys come up with in the Horrors of the Abyss.
The Serge said:
I definitely agree here with balancing their powers to make a sensible cosmos. However, I'm not big on the 70's CRs, or anything that powerful. At that point it just seems to be a mathematical exercise IMO. I do realize that people play games going into the 50's for levels, so I can see the need for some.
Agreed again for the most part. I assume that the highest mortal potential would be about level 35, but at that point they would be among some of the most powerful creatures in the planes. Though the PCs could potentially drop the Demogorgon or Asmodeus the possibility of them ever getting into that situation is very unlikely. There are after all, hordes of enemies to get through first.
The only problem I have with that is the sheer number of gods you'd end up with. Forgotten Realms already has enough gods that I cut half of them out. You say Kossuth and all the players give you blank looks...
Can't wait to see what you guys come up with in the Horrors of the Abyss.
lukelightning said:
Very interesting. I have a question, you have no generic outsiders in your game, do you use the same rule of thumb for most of the more powerful CR creatures in your world? I'm just wondering how you do high level campaigns, or if you play them at all for that matter. Do most of the encounters become mass battles with lower CR mooks?
Sammael
Adventurer
Whoa. This is nearly identical to my view on avatars.Psion said:
*Creature Compendium for my campaign.
I currently have four avatars statted out for use in the campaign, and they are as follows:
Helm (Fighter 12/Cleric 10, CR 19)
Lathander (Fighter 6/Cleric 6/Morninglord 10, CR 19)
Tempus (Fighter 22, CR 22)
Velsharoon (Lich Cleric 3/Necromancer 3/True Necromancer 14, CR 20)
The CRs are a result of eyeballing and ad hoc evaluation. For instance, Lathander has a lot of anti-undead powers (i.e. useless against an average D&D party), and he isn't as good at attacking as Tempus, nor as good at defending as Helm, though his spellcasting surpasses Helm's.
lukelightning
First Post
Bryan898 said:
The game is still low-level (the PCs are level 5). I try to treat all creatures as individuals (of course, this is impossible with the mooks). But Gorgog the Cyclops might not be the same as Meeg the Cyclops, even if their stats are the same (Gorgog is much more of a melee combatant, while likes to throw boulders). PCs making a knowledge (local) check could find this out from the townsfolk (or find out from some other resource) and make use of this info).
That being said, there is nothing wrong with generic out-of-the-box monsters; they just make the customized monsters more interesting.
I also take a free hand in altering monsters; the first monster the PCs fought was a unicorn (unicorns in my world aren't creatures of sweetness and light. They are murderous beasts that like to skewer animals and people with their horns and feast upon spoiled flesh... but they are protected by a powerful glamour that makes them seem beautiful and good so you have to make a will save to attack them).
Thank you very much! If we end up as a candidate, try to vote for The Gates of Hell during the Ennies.Bryan898 said:
Here's the ironic thing: I myself have never played a game past 30th level. It has nothing to do with the suggestion that games fall apart past a certain level (I don't believe they do, but that's a discussion for another time) but just a matter of getting bored with the same characters and wanting to try something different. The goal is somewhat of a "mathematical exercise" in that we want to see how different beings of a certain level measure up to each other. So, although I don't see all but the most powerful (40th level +) PCs with access to true artifacts and possibly cosmic or divine help, I do think it's important that one can compare gods and cosmic entities with each other. I see no reason not to have stats for these beings other than some claim to mystery... which to me is not related to stats as much as it's related to the quality of flavor and the storytelling abilities of a DM.
Although Dicefreaks showcases many high level characters, the bulk of the important characters in The Godspell are between 10th and 20th level with the truly epic current characters topping out at 30th level. It's a matter of consistent progression that reveals the hows and whys of power.
And let me be clear: at Dicefreaks, it's recognized that a powerful character is anything over 9th level in most cosmologies. It's just that we see ourselves as filling/fixing a hole in the manner in which "official" divine and epic rules were created which means that a lot of effort goes into higher numbers.
This only occurs if one considers their world the only world in the universe. Dicefreaks takes a position akin to that established in Planescape: there are infinite worlds in the Mortal Coil (the prime material plane) just as there are infinite realms of possibility in the Elemental Planes (inner planes) and the Realms Beyond (outer planes).
Just as our own Earth has scores of divine pantheons, so too do other worlds (although in some cases, one or two come to dominate). Faerun also happens to have multiple pantheons last I checked.
And if I say Kossuth and players give me blank looks, great! That's just fuel for a campaign that focuses on the mystery of the King of Fire Elementals and his impact on a given world against the will of Malvolans, the Goddess of War and Fire in my world, showcasing how cosmic entities interact with gods. The Cosmos is huge and can easily accomodate multiple gods.
Thanks! We're shooting for a beta release of chapter one at month's end.
painandgreed
First Post
First, I don't use the great wheel. A mage could still use the great wheel to explain the various planes to people in layman's terms and be correct, but the gods do not live on the outer planes. All my homebrew campaign's dieties live on a spiritual twin plane of the material one and they are permananetly connected like the two sides of a coin. It is possible to travel from one to the other but it is usually dangerous and those going either way need to be cautious. These dieties are actual entities who can die although typically only at the hands of another diety in the spirtual plane. If they materialize on the mortal plane, they are typically of an epic level plus divine ranks, and open themselves up to being killed permanently evn by a mortal. Thus, most dieties operate only through clerics except in what may be the most dire or reckless of circumstance.
Similarly, demonlords and the like are probably of low to mid epic levels with divine ranks if they assume control of a plane. How one obtains contrl of a plane is dependant on the nature of the plane. Some may not have controlers. Even if they are the controlers of the plane, they may not be the highest CR on the plane and i don't see that as a problem even in CE planes. I'm sure Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot all had people working under them that cold have beat them in personal combat. If for not other reason than, some high CR entities will not want to put themselves in such a postion to become a target. Leadership of most planes, including the Abyss and Hells, is more a matter of orgnization, networking, deals, bribes, and alliances than personal combat. Those who can organize and command large groups of troops will over come those who canonly fight one other persna t a time. PCs will probably never enter into combat with such any more than the front line soldier would end up fighting Hitler during WW2.
CRs for all would probably be from 21-40. I have a 35 level lich which I find about ridiculous but needs about that many levels for him to have all the feats I want him to have and he is older than some of the gods in my homebrew. So seeing him equal to or even slightly greater than the major dieties on the mortal plane is not out of line.
Similarly, demonlords and the like are probably of low to mid epic levels with divine ranks if they assume control of a plane. How one obtains contrl of a plane is dependant on the nature of the plane. Some may not have controlers. Even if they are the controlers of the plane, they may not be the highest CR on the plane and i don't see that as a problem even in CE planes. I'm sure Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot all had people working under them that cold have beat them in personal combat. If for not other reason than, some high CR entities will not want to put themselves in such a postion to become a target. Leadership of most planes, including the Abyss and Hells, is more a matter of orgnization, networking, deals, bribes, and alliances than personal combat. Those who can organize and command large groups of troops will over come those who canonly fight one other persna t a time. PCs will probably never enter into combat with such any more than the front line soldier would end up fighting Hitler during WW2.
CRs for all would probably be from 21-40. I have a 35 level lich which I find about ridiculous but needs about that many levels for him to have all the feats I want him to have and he is older than some of the gods in my homebrew. So seeing him equal to or even slightly greater than the major dieties on the mortal plane is not out of line.
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lukelightning
First Post
The problem with super uber mega mighty CR 77 demon lords is that despite all the effort you make in designing them you're aren't actually going to use them much. It's a philosophical question: If a demon lord is CR77 and nobody is around to kill it, does it actually have a CR? The vast majority of PCs are under level 20, and making a bunch of super monsters outside that range is a waste of space.
In sourcebooks such as the BoVD or the new demon one, I prefer to have CRs that get up to the mid 20's at most.
In sourcebooks such as the BoVD or the new demon one, I prefer to have CRs that get up to the mid 20's at most.
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