Planescape Rivarlies between Demon Lords, Archdevils and Celestial Paragons

[Not a Decepticon]

I tag this Planescape because I consider all planar stuff Planescape, even if some of it is probably Forgotten Realms specific, and also other settings based on similair cosmology, like Pathfinder or your own homebrew worlds, are welcome.

I had a hard time researching it, and I couldn't really find much. It surprisingly does not seem to me there is much interactions or rivarly between beings of high enough power to be considered Powers, but not Gods. At least not across different groups. Usually a god will get few enemies and allies, but if you look at non-divine Archdevils or Demon Lords, they will have whole sections about enemies and rivals in their own group...and nothing on ones from the opposing group. I have only found few exceptions - Archdevil Zariel clearly is enemy of Demon Lords Yennoghu and Kostchtchie. Malkizid had obvious beef with Lolth, because of whom he fell from grace, even before she became a god. In Pathfinder lore Baphomet once royally trolled Asmodeus and Archdevil Nurgal and Demon Lord Nergal are enemies due to being part of one god, who was split in half as he fell.

Similiarly, we have good counterpart to these - Celestial Paragons. and again, I cannot find any info who are enemies of Lord Talisid and the Five Companions or Celestial Hebdomad. Things are a little bit better on the Court of the Stars, with Gwynharwyf being one of greatest enemeis of Demon Lords of Graz'zt and Kostchtchie, and Ascodel being infamously manipulated by the Pale Night...but even then he gave his life trying to atone for this. If we strech to other non-divine powers, then Morwel and Raziel are enemies of Imix, Prince of Evil Fire, due to aiding Zaaman Rul against him. In Pathfinder we have Empyreal Lord Ragathiel, son of Archdevil Dispater who hate his father.

Have you ever established interpersonal enmity or rivarlies between these types of powerful individual within the game you've run? Or maybe do you think some of them should share personal enmity?

 

[Marandahir]

4e has a lot of details into this stuff in books like Manual of the Planes, Player's Option: Heroes of the Feywild, and Demonomicon.

 

[Darklord581]

I have always somewhat assumed and played out that Gods, Demons, and Devils all had rivalries with any that was opposite them. For Example any of the gods of Nature and life would naturally have at least a distain for Zuggmatoy who's entire goal is to spread her fungus and rot and control all that was once alive. Orcus the god of undead might have some beef with a god of death that treats death as a sacred rite that Orcus is defiling.

But with that maybe some gods don't like each other but repect each other. Lets say Orcus raises an army of the undead to try to take over some of the material plane. Then a god of life and the god of death i mentioned earlier might team up to stop Orcus.

I hope this helped and sorry for not naming any gods in specific i struggle to remeber them all so i usually go off what they "rule" or have "domain" over

 

[Sorinth]

Can't give you much info on the lore, but as a topic it reminds me of something an author's talked about, they were writing a book series set during a war and initially thought that enemy army would provide plenty of enemies for the hero to face off against. But as they were writing the books they quickly discovered that 90% of the time the hero was talking to and dealing with people on their own side. So to have a proper villain, they had to be an "ally" just so there would be enough meaningful interactions that would force the hero into difficult/moral/interesting/etc... choices.

 

[dave2008]

Are you looking for good vs evil only? I ask because there is more info about evil vs evil that you didn't mention.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I just want to point out that none of that stuff is Forgotten Realms specific. The Forgotten Realms multiverse is the same one that Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and now in 5e even Eberron exists within. In fact, many of the names appeared first in Greyhawk sources.

Just one of those little pet peeves of mine, the way that presentation has made so many players that came in after 2e connect things to the Forgotten Realms specifically that are actually shared Planescape multiverse things.

 

[Voadam]

4e has a lot of crossover for Grazzt as he goes from angel to arch-devil lieutenant of Asmodeus, to apparently betraying Asmodeus to abandon the diabolic cause and become a demon lord in the Abyss. It leaves open the question of whether he and Asmodeus are now enemies or whether this is all part of a plot Asmodeus set up in advance that is going according to plan.

 

[the Jester]

Well, the whole premise of the Blood War is basically that demons and devils hate one another and are constantly warring. Specifically, whoever is in charge of the First Hell (depending on the edition/campaign) rules over one of the major battlefields; and the first layer of the Abyss is likewise a major site of the conflict. So those layers' rulers presumably have a lot of hate for everyone on the other side who is sending forces against their realm.

In my own campaign, I have a lot of these things drawn out. I largely use a homebrewed pantheon of deities, but...

• The Sea Queen and Forgotten King (gods) have a serious hate-on for Sekolah (who is, in my campaign, both a god and an arch-devil who rules over the Infernal oceans).
• Orcus is opposed and hated by the god Galador.
• The infernal hierarchy is hated by a number of gods representing freedom.
• Bleak, a god of evil and darkness, is a rival/hated foe of many demon princes, who see it as infringing on their space and roles.
• Tiamat, who is both a goddess and an arch-devil, is a sworn foe of many of the humanoid gods of good.
• Yeenoghu is an arch-enemy of the old gnollish pantheon, who he tore apart.
• The slaad lords are strongly opposed to and opposed by various lawful powers, including Primus (the modron lord) and many of the humanoids' gods, good and evil.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Are you looking for good vs evil only? I ask because there is more info about evil vs evil that you didn't mention.

Evil vs evil is fine, as long as it's not rivalry between members of the same side. I know Yeenoghu hates Baphometh and isn't big fan of Graz'tr either, but I would like to know what archdevils he has beef with, for example.

4e has a lot of details into this stuff in books like Manual of the Planes, Player's Option: Heroes of the Feywild, and Demonomicon.

I will try to read them, any specifics come to mind that I could look forwards in those books?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Evil vs evil is fine, as long as it's not rivalry between members of the same side. I know Yeenoghu hates Baphometh and isn't big fan of Graz'tr either, but I would like to know what archdevils he has beef with, for example.

They don't really interact with the Archdevils, so I have never gotten a sense the Demon Lords really have rivalries or the such with them.