Gods and their temples in your games

[Elf Witch]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

I use the gods and their churches a lot in my games. And I have certain rules for clerics if you play a cleric of a god with an organized temple then you tithe 10% of your loot to the church. I have been known to take away spells on clerics who break a lot of the tenets that his god holds true.

Gods can't be out righted killed in my games by PCs they can be badly diminished and banished for hundreds even thousands of years but they can come back. They also can't easily walk around the material plains to do so makes them vulnerable so many chose to speak through someone else or use dreams to communicate with followers.

Gods can't interfere to openly because they don't want to attract the attention of other gods who might want to stop them from doing what they are doing so they tend to be sneaky and use their followers or others to accomplish their goals.

They are not omniscient and they can't see the future clearly there are many futures that can happen.

Gods get power from their worshipers so there is always some rivalry between them even the good gods.

As for the churches sometimes they work together sometimes they don't. And if you are not a follower of the god you can't expect them to help you for free there will always be something in for them.

Take raise dead the cleric preforming it on a non follower will usually be tasked by his god to do something or sometimes the god may put a geas on the non believer to fulfill a task or give them X amount of time to fulfill a quest or the god will take back their life. Which is why in a lot of my games people prefer reincarnate usually because it has no strings involved.

I tweak this stuff depending on the story I want to help tell. For example in my current campaign the gods have been kept away from the world for over a thousand years. The churches are there and have priests but no true clerics the only divine magic is the magic of nature and the druids. Divine magic is just starting to slowly seep back in. This has allowed me to play around with having evil and greedy people as the head of some of the temples.

The only way to come back from the dead is to be reincarnated and since there is limited divine healing plagues and sickness do happen the druids are to few in numbers to curb it.

And the churches of Pelor, St Cuthbert, Obad-Hai , Elhonna and Heironeous the only churches active jockey for position betray each other all the time. Unknown to my players the head of both the church of St Cuthbert and Heironeous have slowly been taken over those who find the teachings of Hextra to be the one true way.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

Great thread! Fantasy theology and related issues are always close to my heart. Let’s see…

Killing a God… Well, gods aren’t all made from the same mold. Some were born gods and some were made gods. If someone is made as god, usually you can unmake it. Sometimes this process can be so difficult that it’s just better to imprison the god (assuming you want to kill them). Gods can die due to neglect if they have no worshippers. In my game a deity dying due to neglect is the most common way for a god to die… Old gods and new gods.

Good temples compete for followers. If you have temples Pelor and Heironeous, they naturally compete for souls. Clerics tithe and followers too. Temples devote themselves to the people who tithe and do not cast spells to non-followers. Imagine how few remove diseases does a group of eight mid-level clerics have? They store them day-to-day basis just for their followers, who basically pay to reserve such spells. It’s their right to have them cast upon them when needed and non-tithing people can screw themselves. All temples, good or bad, take competition followers very, very seriously. Tithing usually works only for one specific temple. Unless the faith has an organized world church (like Pelor now has in my, a “pope” called Archlight included), only the temple where you tithe will give you spells. They might sell you potions too. In order to have access to the best spells of the temple and buy magical items, you need to be a real follower, attending masses every Sunday and show genuine piety.

Tithing has this general mechanism: The first two months tithe in advance, after that you pay normally the last day of a month. Temples make sure that you don’t cheat.

The only exception to the “no spells for non-believers” rule is the lycanthropy. All temples must handle these cases but basically all of them take double-pay for the spells.

Clerics have never offended any tenets in my game. Usually my players play clerics by the book. I’d like to give some warning first and maybe one day without spells. Repeated or serious offences would make one an ex-cleric. Paladins on the other hand have been more difficult. I had one paladin who thought it’s ok to let others steal as long he doesn’t steal :-/ Really, this is true; the player thought the paladin code means that as long he doesn’t do bad things, everything is ok. That was very disappointing.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

I don't think too much about gods, so they don't play a big part in my games. The good churches generally get along, but the competition for parishioners is always there. Theoretically it's possible to kill a god, but it'd take an epic quest and some kind of mcguffin to do so.

Divine casters in my games are somewhat like favored souls; each one has a metaphorical 'inner flame' of power. Churches often ignite that flame within worthy acolytes, and gods sometimes ignite the flame within worthy individuals, but once the flame is lit it doesn't go out.

Take raise dead the cleric preforming it on a non follower will usually be tasked by his god to do something or sometimes the god may put a geas on the non believer to fulfill a task or give them X amount of time to fulfill a quest or the god will take back their life. Which is why in a lot of my games people prefer reincarnate usually because it has no strings involved.

Wait, so your druids have a monopoly on the res business...and they don't require some kind of similar task in return for a reincarnation? Wow, your druids really are hippies.

I tweak this stuff depending on the story I want to help tell. For example in my current campaign the gods have been kept away from the world for over a thousand years. The churches are there and have priests but no true clerics the only divine magic is the magic of nature and the druids. Divine magic is just starting to slowly seep back in. This has allowed me to play around with having evil and greedy people as the head of some of the temples.

Read a lot of classic Dragonlance, do you?

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't usually have a issue with clerics in my game when it does come it is usually because a party member has done something that is totally offensive to the god and the party cleric finds he can't heal him. I have been lucky that my players who play clerics try and really play them by the tenets of their chosen god.

The druids sometimes ask for payment of some kind but that does not involve a geas or a threat of losing your life if you don't comply and it is asked of the people seeking to reincarnate their dead. Also the druids just don't do it willy nilly you have to convince them that the person needs to finish something important. It takes a lot because they consider the balance of the all things. They might grant a young father or mother a chance to come back because there is no one to care for their young children yet they will turn down a great king. That is how I usually do druids but raise dead is available and people risk it.

In my current campaign I wanted a way to bring back a PC who died but I didn't want a lot of divine cleric style magic in the game so I said that druids can reincarnate but it is not common knowledge they don't go around doing it a lot.

Actually I have a long time ago and until you mentioned it did not see the connection. In my game there was a great war between Tiamat and Bahmut the "good"guys were losing so in last ditch attempt to save the people of this world a barrier was thrown up Bahmut was "killed" in the process. This protected the world from the "evil" gods but also stopped the good gods from reaching their followers. The battle was not so much a war of good vs evil but a war over freedom and iron rule. Tiamat side was against the lessor races the humans, dwarves, kobolds, gnomes and the wild elves having the freedom to choice their destiny. She felt that they showed be ruled with an iron hand for everyone sake. The other side disagreed on the principle that that kind of lack of freedom is tyranny.

Bahmut was not killed but he was severely weakened on the other planes as well.

 

[Li Shenron]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games.

Not always in the same way, I usually change something every campaign at least a little bit, so take these ideas below as the most common in my games but not always the case. However, I also usually don't start thinking about it until we're into the campaign a few levels, in the meantime leaving things on the background.

Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Killing a god is not on my gaming table. If this impossibility bothers a player, he's free to believe he can kill gods, anyway my games will never reach the level required for that (and if we ever do, they'd be their avatars rather than gods themselves).

2 setups I have used for gods in my campaigns have been "gods as concepts" and the more traditional "gods as a pagan pantheon". In the first case it just doesn't make sense to think a god can be killed, because you'd have to erase his concept from existence, e.g. to kill the god of war you'd need to make sure all wars in the universe will end.

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches?

Usually yes, especially when using "gods as a pagan pantheon" (such as in ancient Greek religion). Essentially the common folks worship many if not all good/neutral gods depending on the circumstances, so these churches normally cooperate rather than compete.

Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches?

No.

Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

Yes. Clerics must be consistent with their ethos. If you don't want to play a consistent character, don't play ethos-based classes.

They also can't easily walk around the material plains to do so makes them vulnerable so many chose to speak through someone else or use dreams to communicate with followers.

Gods can't interfere to openly because they don't want to attract the attention of other gods who might want to stop them from doing what they are doing so they tend to be sneaky and use their followers or others to accomplish their goals.

These are actually nice ideas...

I've never had a god directly show up in the game, but I like using manifestations such as omens, weather, small miracles or favored animals showing up and do something (FR's Faith & Pantheons had good examples). The farthest I can go is have an avatar directly show up and speak.

They are not omniscient and they can't see the future clearly there are many futures that can happen.

Mine neither, but I like having them being able to sense a lot of things. For example, if there is a war battle, the god of battle is likely to be aware of that and maybe "see" through it.

Gods get power from their worshipers so there is always some rivalry between them even the good gods.

Power from worship is a concept that comes and goes in our campaigns... sometimes I've made it more explicit, but I prefer that a god's power is more generally fueled by how strong its concept/ethos is in the world. A god of death doesn't gather any significant boost if he can rally ten thousands people praying in his name, but he definitely gets more powerful in times of wars, famine, plague and murder.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

The deities get their strength from the amount of faith and belief their followers have. So the only way to kill a deity in my games is to first kill their followers. However, the deities tend to notice when large groups of worshipers start disappearing so it can be a tricky task.

As for the role the gods play, it depends entirely on the campaign/party. In the last game I ran, as the cleric gained strength and power, he slowly became the most powerful priest in the city and surrounding area. As such, whenever he prayed for guidance he actually got face time with his god.

I've also had deities show up based on roleplaying. A bard in a temple of Evening Glory caused her to show up and take interest in him because he told a love story during one of her masses. The Trickster, a chaotic nature deity in my games, took an ... unhealthy interest in the fighter because he did everything short of peeing on the alter.

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

The good churches tolerate each other but definitely won't let an opportunity to snipe at another church slide past. "Oh, I would expect as much from a priest of Kord...." So while there may be some jockeying in the background, I usually have whomever is in charge (local lord, watch, whomever) not tolerate anything overt.

I used to tell clerics and paladins that they needed to tithe in my previous games. I forgot to bring it up in my last game beceause no one was playing a divinely oriented character at first. So when a new player joined as a cleric I didn't raise the issue. In the past though my players tend to do it without any prompting. I also make it a point to track how much my players donate of their own free will especially if their non-divine. When the fighter routinely gifts to the church of sunshine, happiness and healing, he may find that he can receive free aid later on.

The gods can get angry at their clerics. The clerics can lose spell access if they stray too far from their deity. However, with proper repentance and demonstration of faith (Quest!) they will be able to regain their abilities. Though they will never have as much influence within their church again. Also, just because you pray for a spell doesn't mean that your god will be willing to grant it. Why would a god let you raise Bob when it is implied by prophecy that Bob will bring about the great doom if he lives to fight his brother? And if your divine caster is abusing "Game Breaking Mega Spell" they may find that they can no longer prepare that spell or any spell at all. Treating your god's boons like a bazooka, to be fired and tossed aside, can end badly. That isn't to say your cleric can't heal and flame strike as they go on a dungeon crawl. But if your solution to everything is "I gate in a bunch of Solars" you're going to wind up on the naughty list quickly. (I hope I was able to articulate my point clear enough )

Something I require is that a cleric/druid/paladin have a deity. You're getting that divine power from somewhere and whomever is granting it is going to influence your actions, even subconsciously. I allow druids to revere nature/spirits of the land and still receive spells and what not. I've toyed with the idea of using ancestor worship as an organized religion in D&D but I really wasn't sure how to make it work. (If that doesn't make sense, I can ramble on it some more)

They are not omniscient and they can't see the future clearly there are many futures that can happen.

Any good prophecy should be interpreted three different ways before lunch.

 

[GreyLord]

I play that you can slay deities if you have a polytheistic world. In every culture almost which has had this belief, they can die and can be slain. It's simply part of the entire mythos.

It's not like Christianity where you can't even reach out and touch the deity, it's like the Greeks where the Deities come and visit, frolic, and get hurt, wounded, or killed by Mortals and the like.

 

[GreyLord]

Somehow got a double post.

 

[Sunseeker]

Most of the "major" deities I include in my world are hands-off. Intervention is limited through their disciples and the occasional miracle, I take the stance that faith is bolstered by needing to interpret the will of the deity in question rather than just seeing it happen, so more involved deities have smaller followings. "Lesser" deities focus on one specific thing, a special forest, a certain range of mountains, an ocean, etc... They have less of a desire for followers and the numbers of those followers are limited, their structures smaller and few and far between.

I've never taken a campaign to god-killing level, or even to the interacting-with-gods-on-a-regular-basis level. I like to treat the power of gods as based on their followers, so killing a god without destroying their religion serves little purpose.

I'm also not a very big fan of "God Wars", holy wars between the followers of two different gods? Sure. But battles between the gods themselves are just silly. Either their awesome power is pointless because their foe has equal power, or their awesome power is wasted because their foe can undo everything they do instantly.

 

[Derren]

One question, primarily to those who tie the power of a god to its number of followers, what is a follower exactly?
In a polytheistic pantheon, especially one where people do know for fact that all the deities really exist like in D&D hardly anyone would just worship one god. They might slightly favor one god over others because of their profession, tradition, birth, etc. but most people would follow the rites of several, if not all, gods and pray to whatever god their support they need of think they have angered.